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Author Topic: IRON DUKE 1914  (Read 75762 times)

Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #325 on: March 14, 2017, 01:50:29 PM »

Hmm, still having trouble when I cut and paste narrative - lets try the pdf version!


Cheers


Geoff


Geoff, I have tried to alter the formatting sizes but it's not an easy job.

I would recommend not cutting and pasting text  here as it comes out with the wrong sizes

ken
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ballastanksian

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #326 on: March 14, 2017, 08:28:33 PM »

It is not often that a radical alternative solution works so well. Thanks for the narrative and diagrams as they have clarified many points and indeed show how a complex system as described is less so when shown in plans and piccies.

I was pleased to see that you managed to retain the scale look of the gun barrels, which can be difficult especially when making them for BB/ cap firing.

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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #327 on: April 04, 2017, 02:01:30 PM »

By way of an update I have now had two testing sessions on the water. The first was over a week ago in very windy weather. I successfully fired about 50/60 salvos albeit with an oddity insofar as if the rudder turned left the aft guns fired. Pesky computer controlled transmitters are kind of complicated at times! It took a while to resolve.


Also "A & B" turrets were erratic. A turned out to have a partly frozen servo so the pump didn't operate and after about 20 shots from B the servo fried and seized up. These have now been replaced with the same servos as Q, X & Y.



The results were positive but with the strong wind the smoke was blown horizontally but was readily visible from a considerable distance. Closer to there was a distinct "phwoooof" noise which was quite audible.


The second session was last Sunday in much better conditions. The only problem this time was that the limit switch on "Q" turret malfunctioned so "Q" didn't fire a shot. Again I fired about 60 salvos over an extended period of time.


On the basis a picture says a thousand words please see attached. The effect is much more dramatic than the previous system.


I think I can claim an "Original design" with this system and its now proven.


Hope the pictures wil be of interest


Cheers


Geoff

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JerryTodd

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #328 on: April 04, 2017, 02:11:12 PM »

Magnificent!

derekwarner_decoy

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #329 on: April 04, 2017, 04:08:42 PM »

A truly spectacular set of images Geoff :-))......... congratulations

In model scale of this enormity and complexity, it matters little that a an individual turret failed in operation........I have read transcripts where the originals [on occasion] also malfunctioned in sea firing trials

I suggest you are light years ahead in producing lifelike model naval warfare available for public exhibition over those continuing along the path of complex turret control/movement

Derek
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Bob K

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #330 on: April 04, 2017, 04:44:24 PM »

Truly amazing realism, after a long R&D development.  Congratulations.  Looks awesome.

If only the system could be reproduced in a manner that other enthusiasts could use . . .
(Wishful thinking !)

I hope to see it in action at Wicksteed, or any other show.  I trust it is suitably drool-proofed (tee hee!)
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Rottweiler

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #331 on: April 04, 2017, 05:24:53 PM »

Very nice indeed,a very realistic result Hopefully you can now bring out a kit that we can all use!
Lots of time and trial and error,but very well done
Mick F
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dreadnought72

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #332 on: April 04, 2017, 06:05:08 PM »

I suggest you are light years ahead in producing lifelike model naval warfare available for public exhibition over those continuing along the path of complex turret control/movement


Thanks for your enthusiastic support, Derek.  <*<


Geoff, the effects look great: well done!  :-))


Andy
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C-3PO

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #333 on: April 04, 2017, 06:32:15 PM »


I suggest you are light years ahead in producing lifelike model naval warfare available for public exhibition over those continuing along the path of complex turret control/movement

Derek

Silly Billy! - I think your crystal ball must be malfunctioning
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ballastanksian

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #334 on: April 04, 2017, 08:48:27 PM »

That looks pretty much like the real thing and is inspiring Geoff. I am very pleased for you and hope your problems with servos are quickly and painlessly resolved.

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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #335 on: April 05, 2017, 01:39:34 PM »

Firstly the picture looks interesting, 3D printer heaters if I'm not mistaken and a peristaltic pump - okay whats it for, funnel smoke? My brother in law has been looking at these heaters as well to see if they are easier to use than the PTC Thermistors. For a gunfire system I don't think how the heat is supplied will make a lot of difference as ultimately it will take the same amount of heat and energy consumption to flash vaporise a given volume of liquid provided the ultimate temperature is sufficiently high.


Secondly, I hadn't any plans to provide a kit of parts for the gunfire system but I believe all the elements can readily be constructed by any competent modeller. Probably the hardest part is to drill the heat exchanger and whilst I have a small lathe this can be done with a pillar drill.


Whilst my pumps are brass there is no reason these can't be glued together using plastic tubing albeit I would counsel using brass tube glued in for the barrel and piston to minimise friction.


None of the elements are particularly critical in terms of dimensions as its really a question of how big the model is and if you can fit the heat exchanger and thermistor in the turret. If not there is no reason why it can't be fitted vertically. My belief is the concept is very flexible, for example there is no real reason why the pump has to be in the revolving structure as silicon tubing would give sufficient flexibility to mount it elsewhere in the hull. Its just the way I developed the system and having developed it, it is clear there are many possible permutations.


Than you all for the positive comments


Cheers


Geoff




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derekwarner_decoy

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #336 on: April 06, 2017, 01:43:29 AM »

Andy and C-3PO.... rereading my post, I certainly was not critical or your work, infact in the early part of the thread/s you are working on, I offered assistance with any technical aspect of multiple gun turret motion

Geoff displayed what I suggest is a brilliant representation of fire power as available for the public to see from that date onwards  O0

This has taken many months developing the spectacular simulation firing from aboard his HMS Iron Duke

From this I should retract my term of Light Years and substitute Scale Light Years [which I think will be linear or in 2 dimension %) ]

I certainly await further progress with the great work you are achieving in your thread work :-))

Derek
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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #337 on: April 10, 2017, 08:52:45 AM »

I'm getting frustrated now - more testing over the weekend and fired about 40 salvos in all. A & B just stopped working as the channel had dropped out for some reason - so no pump operation - it took an hour to figure it out back home and get all functioning again (pesky computer controlled transmitters!).


Y turret stopped working after about 12 salvos which was traced to a plastic lay shaft inside the servo shearing off so no pump operation. This has been replaced by a brass shaft and we will see how that goes. I have reduced the pump throw on Q, X & Y just in case this was responsible for fracturing the lay shaft in some way - running out of movement.


Q turret rang out of battery power so by the end of the day I was down to X turret which performed perfectly. I don't think all my batteries are of the same quality and some are getting a bit old but hopefully frequent usage will help to restore them.



I blew three engine fuses due to weed problems. I have a 10 amp fuse for the speed controller plus two 5amp fuses, one for each motor. ID was never disabled as the other motor and props got her back to shore okay each time. Its just annoying as I have to take the whole deck off to get to the engine fuses!


Other than that a good days sailing in glorious weather on the Sunday but overall still not getting the designed number of possible salvos.


Hopefully just teething troubles whilst I sort out all possible weaknesses. One item to think about is that if a turret is not working the heater unit is still energised so the turret gets quite hot and is causing some issues. If they are firing the action reduces the temperature and if I switch off the heaters I can usually get another 5 shots before deterioration starts with the smoke cloud getting too small. I may have to think up some more circuitry!


Overall it all works, just


Cheers


Geoff
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ballastanksian

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #338 on: April 10, 2017, 09:21:48 PM »

Your efforts with ironing out the teething troubles echos the same efforts made by the engineers when perfecting the electrically operated turrets on HMS Invincible, but without the sheets of blue flame and singed engineers.

You will indeed get there, and updating all the turrets with new components and electronic parts as you go should improve reliability.
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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #339 on: April 18, 2017, 01:55:10 PM »

Okay, another day another sailing and another series of tests. Again I can't say it was a complete success as after about 12 salvos B turret stopped firing and Y turret never fired a single shot. Otherwise about 50 salvos from the others.


Okay what went wrong this time:


B turret the silicon pipe split at the heat exchanger so I just flooded the turret with fog fluid which drained back into the container. The insulation was absolutely soaked so needed to be replaced.


Y turret the pipe split at the junction of the pump so whilst the repaired servo worked fine it wasn't pumping fluid to the heat exchanger!


Now whilst this may seem a little frustrating I have given some reflection to all this and on average I'm probably getting about 45 salvos per turret. Some give more and others less, or not at all. However if we take 40 as an average we get 40 x 5 x 5 (sailings) and we get circa 1,000 shots which isn't bad and as the numbers climb its going to show up any potential weak points in the system.


Fundamentally the system works with the key components being the pumps and the PTC thermistors/heat exchangers proving continuously reliable so no fundamental flaws and I guess as above at about 1,000 shots I should reasonably expect some failure modes to show up.


More importantly I was able to fire a sufficient number of guns on and off for over 4 hours on Sunday much to the amusement of all onlookers. The audible "Phwoof" certainly startled a few dogs!


The effect is clearly visible at 40/50 yards.


In conclusion some more work is needed for the pipe connectors and to make sure the servos aren't stalled in any way. I think when the silicon pipe is cut if there is a slight scoring on the end this can lead to a weak point causing later splitting. Some of the batteries seem to expire before others so I need to find away to stress test the batteries. In itself this isn't a big problem but from a practical perspective I just then dribble fluid out the end of a barrel which is messy.

Hope this isn't getting too boring for you all as I iron out the bugs in this system.


Cheers


Geoff

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ballastanksian

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #340 on: April 18, 2017, 11:26:27 PM »

It is your thread Geoff and you can keep at it for as long as you feel it is beneficial and want to submit information. If we are getting bored we have the choice not to keep checking in. This will still be a useful reference for anyone taking the plunge with their model warship.

As a demonstration of how to proof a complex system in a field many of us are interested in; namely how to make our battle ships look cool on the water, it takes some beating. It is a topic that has morphed almost completely from how you built a ship to how you created and perfected a gun smoke system.

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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #341 on: May 08, 2017, 08:37:04 AM »

I think any updates will be further apart from now on. Another sailing session on Sunday and all worked perfectly! All five turrets worked consistently. After about 55 salvos B turret began to slow down but still worked for another 5 salvos approx. Eventually B stopped altogether but A continued for another 15 + salvos until it too dropped out. Nothing wrong with the system and just the batteries running down. I clearly have one weak battery as all the others continued and I would guess on average about 70 salvos all in so something in the region of 350 plus shots fired.


Fog fluid consumption is in the region of 3/4 of a jam jar full for each session. The limiting factor now seems to be battery capacity but I'm not surprised as some of the 12 volt batteries are quite old. I just need to identify the weak ones and replace them. Candidly I can live with 350 shots in a session which I think is adequate!


Of more importance is that reliability seems to be improving as well as nothing actually broke, all pumps worked, all thermistors worked, all servos and relays worked, no pipe splits.


All in all I was very pleased with the sailing on Sunday.


Cheers


Geoff

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ballastanksian

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #342 on: May 08, 2017, 08:49:37 PM »

I am so pleased for you Geoff. It sounds like the process will be a while yet to completly proof, but 350 shots has to be good in anyone's money  :-))
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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #343 on: May 15, 2017, 08:46:32 AM »

Another sailing session on Sunday and I'm pleased to advise all went well - another 60/70 salvo's with all turrets firing pretty nearly to the end.


I picked up a local curiosity - a 2.5" high teak barrel made from Iron Duke's deck with a little brass plaque confirming its provenance - Jellico's flagship at Jutland 1916. Really quite pleased with this find.


Cheers


Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #344 on: May 15, 2017, 10:25:32 AM »

A truly beautiful model Geoff, and your gun fire system is a work of art.

I hope I may get to see it a show this summer?
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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #345 on: May 16, 2017, 09:15:07 PM »

That will be a high spot of my weekend.
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Bob K

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #346 on: May 29, 2017, 08:52:31 PM »

Now I have seen it at Wicksteed this weekend - Wow !  Truly magnificent effect, and so consistent.
To produce this, without pyrotechnics, is a wonderful accomplishment.  .... I am blown away with it.
 :-))  :-))  :-))  :-))
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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #347 on: May 30, 2017, 08:36:46 AM »

Thank you for your kind comments which are appreciated. ID performed well at Wicksteed and fired in the region of 65/70 salvo's again. I must find a way to accurately count the salvos as once you start shooting at the other ships (targets) it kind of hard to stop!

I hope one day for someone to fire back at me with the same system.

It was a lot of fun trying to sail in formation with Dreadnought, Superb and Suffolk and as usual really quite hard to keep formation due to different turning circles and speeds and windage ete. I hope to be able to sail with Agincourt at some point in the future.

A great weekend - well to be fair I was only there on Sunday so I git the better of the weather!

Cheers

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #348 on: June 01, 2017, 06:27:05 PM »


I hope one day for someone to fire back at me with the same system.


Geoff:  With your kind assistance and information, that might be me  O0

Bob K
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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #349 on: June 16, 2017, 02:20:57 PM »

I think its probably time to conclude this blog as I've been sailing ID with the new gunnery system for some time and the system seems to be completely reliable and effective so maybe some reflections:


- The system works and I consistently get in the region of 300 to 350 shots so 65 to 70 salvos
- The PTC Thermistors and heat exchange design has proven totally reliable. I could possibly improve this by having the fog fluid injected at 90 degrees as it would be structurally easier within the turret.
- The pump design has proved to be ideal and again is entirely consistent and reliable
The Turnigy 9XR transmitter has proved ideal with both servo throw and speed adjustments. In particular controlling the forward and aft sets of turrets with two of the pots has proved ideal.
- Turning the turrets with servo sized sail winches using fishing line to pull them round has proved reliable and effective.
- Self centring is a little erratic but because I can adjust each turret set independently this is not a problem and on the water all is fine
- Early teething troubles were with ancillary components, pipes and servos and the fundamental design and concept has proved sound.
- The heat effect on the turrets was greater than anticipated. I used a plywood frame covered in plastic card using evostick and the evostick gives way with the heat causing some delamination. I have now replaced the sides with ply so this should solve the problem. The turrets were never that hot but just enough to cause adhesion problems which could not have been anticipated. Fibre glass turrets would be ideal.
- Overall I'm very pleased with the effect on the water
The bright LED's in adjacent gun barrels work okay but is probably not worth the extra effort
- Maybe I should add a sound module?


Cheers


Geoff


One final question, what do I build next? %)
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