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[raflaunches]

Last year I became interested in a series of books about British aircraft projects since WW2 that never entered service, the main one being TSR2, but there were several projects which exceeded the design phase and were built or at least mocked up. These have become the British equalivant of the Luftwaffe 46 paper projects, appropriately called 'The Alternative V-Force'.


Some of these projects are relatively well known such as the TSR2 and Saunders Roe SR53 rocket interceptor, but there are some that should be better known like the Avro 730 Mach 3 long range bomber which was actually mocked up and built in some sections but scrapped before it had a chance to be tested!


The Avro 730, model is 1/144 scale and is the size of a VC-10!





The next model is the Hawker P1083 'Supersonic Hunter' project. Built to 1/72 scale using the Revell kit and the Freightdog model conversion kit, essentially a hunter fuselage with  a new increased swept back wing.





I'll add more pictures as I take them of other models I have either built or in the building process, I have a 1/144 scale C-97 Strato-cruiser converted to an AWACs version called AEW Mk 4. The Saunders Roe SR177 rocket interceptor production version of the SR53, in boxes waiting to be built are English Electric P10 fighter, a Supersonic Harrier, and a VC-10 'Poffler' (a Skybolt nuclear missile launch aircraft).


The books are from Hikori Publication and are called 'Battle Flight' and Vulcan's Hammer', the first book is about the air defence ideas and schemes whilst the second is about aircraft and weapons to replace the Vulcan/Victor/Valiant. Some truly terrible weapons were built but luckily never used, the most dangerous being code named "Violet Sun'- a nuclear device that was more powerful than the most destructive nuclear weapon that the either the Yanks or the Russians ever built, but was thankfully scrapped because they realised how dangerous a weapon would be if the other nuclear powers found out about it!

[raflaunches]

some more aircraft...


The Avro 720, the direct competitor to the Saunders Roe SR53 rocket interceptor.
In the back ground you will be able to see the Fairey Delta 2 prototype.





The Saunders Roe SR177 production version of the SR53





An finally the C-97 Strato-cruiser converted to the AEW Mk 4 AWACs circa 1957.

[Shipmate60]

Nick,
As a young lad we were on our way north past Farnborough.
At the end of the runway was a TSR2 running the engines.
I got my dad to pull over in a lay-by to watch it.
It started trundling along the runway and i thought it was going to do more ground checks.
OH NO.
The afterburners came on, it seemed like it took off in a few plane lengths and went vertical.
Straight through the cloud cover.
Never seen anything like that fast before or for a long time after at Farnborough air show.


Bob

[eddiesolo]

Top models there and very interesting, thanks for sharing. 


Si:)

[raflaunches]

Top models there and very interesting, thanks for sharing. 


Si:)

Thanks Si, I'll have to remember to dust them more often!

Nick,
As a young lad we were on our way north past Farnborough.
At the end of the runway was a TSR2 running the engines.
I got my dad to pull over in a lay-by to watch it.
It started trundling along the runway and i thought it was going to do more ground checks.
OH NO.
The afterburners came on, it seemed like it took off in a few plane lengths and went vertical.
Straight through the cloud cover.
Never seen anything like that fast before or for a long time after at Farnborough air show.


Bob

I'm very jealous, Bob, my Dad even more so! My Dad joined the RAF to work on the TSR2 but found out in training that they cancelled her before he joined up, he never got to see one fly, so you're very lucky.

[Shipmate60]

I know Nick, but even from just that 1 flight you could see it was something special.
Far better than the F111 that was going to replace it till so many F111's got shot down in Vietnam.


Bob

[raflaunches]

You should read the books called TSR2 Britain's Lost Bomber or Britain's Forgotten Bomber or even TSR2 the lost days of an eagle- it's enough to make your blood boil, ironically the technology that was developed for it was reused in the Tornado, the serial number plates fitted to some components have dates on them that are 15 years too early for the aircraft!

[raflaunches]

Thought I resurrect this thread because I'm building another Alternative V force model this time in 1/72.
At the same time I thought I would build what actually entered service instead to give some comparison.


So I give you... The Hawker P.1154 Supersonic Harrier, and the smaller one is the standard Hawker Harrier GR1!


The P.1154 evolved from the earlier P.1127 as a larger and more capable supersonic V/STOL design providing the RN and RAF with what then would have been a unique and versatile weapons platform.
Originally proposed for both the RN and RAF versions with 80% commonality, the RN variant did not reach the same stage of development as that of the RAF one, of which pre-productions airframes were at an advanced stage of construction when the project was cancelled in 1965! The projected RAF order was for 157 plus 25 twin seat trainers planned to serve with 8 RAF squadrons.














Just imagine what could have been...

[McGherkin]

A supersonic Harrier would have been a truly fantastic aircraft, shame we're not allowed to have nice things in this country any more 

[Mad Scientist]

We Canadians are lucky - ther's always some sort of model of the Avro Arrow in production somewhere, and it's been that way since the 1960's.
A few years ago, the RCN sent two ships equipped with state-of-the-art sidescanning sonar to search for models of the Arrow. The models had been launched over Lake Ontario to test possible aircraft shapes. No models were found.
 
Tom

[raflaunches]

Hi Tom


Sorry it took me so long to return to this thread, I must say that I like the look of the Arrow and plan to buy a Hobbycraft 1/48 scale version soon. I've also found another cancelled project-


The Hawker P1121 fighter


Powered by Gyron Junior engines it would have been a Mach 2 fighter but was cancelled in 1957 under the infamous Defence White Paper by Duncan Sandys. The excuse? No foreseeable market as an export, the irony that it was a British equal of the McDonnell Douglas Phantom II which sold approx 5000 aircraft- so much for a non-existent market!
I also found out that the prototype has survived in bits in the RAF storage hangar at the RAF Cosford museum. I'm considering buying this kit too from S&M models (not what you think, you do get some funny google search results!) in 1/72 scale. It's a cross between a F-16 and a Hawker Hunter.


For anyone interested in this theme there is a third book in the Alternative V-Force series-


Listening In- electronic intelligence gathering since 1945 by Chris Gibson.


Should be a good read and is available from June 2014 from Crecy Publishing.


The same author aside from the two other books Vulcans Hammer and Battle Flight, he has released some other titles like VC-10 variants-AEW/Electronic Jamming/Pofflers, AEW & the Admiralty, and Royal Air Force Airborne Early Warning Projects. They all give an interesting view of what the British aircraft industry could have produced if they had been allowed to.

[peter61_uk]

Nick,
As a young lad we were on our way north past Farnborough.
At the end of the runway was a TSR2 running the engines.
I got my dad to pull over in a lay-by to watch it.
It started trundling along the runway and i thought it was going to do more ground checks.
OH NO.
The afterburners came on, it seemed like it took off in a few plane lengths and went vertical.
Straight through the cloud cover.
Never seen anything like that fast before or for a long time after at Farnborough air show.


Bob

I live pretty much next to Farnborough Airport ........... Get to watch the show in the garden.............. Most of the planes come over our house during the show. I remember the last one 2012 ......... The Vulcan came over just above our roof and pretty much blotted what little sun there was (It rained a lot during the show)......... and I've thought more than once that a red arrow or two might try calling in for a cuppa.

[GAZOU]

 

the McDonnell Douglas Phantom II which sold approx 5000 aircraft- so much for a non-existent market!

Because you believe that you have left the Yankees sell your aircraft?


Even if your flight was better they would let you crumbs   

[raflaunches]

I live pretty much next to Farnborough Airport ........... Get to watch the show in the garden.............. Most of the planes come over our house during the show. I remember the last one 2012 ......... The Vulcan came over just above our roof and pretty much blotted what little sun there was (It rained a lot during the show)......... and I've thought more than once that a red arrow or two might try calling in for a cuppa.

You are very lucky to see all those aircraft at the air show from your garden. I'm hopefully coming down to Farnborough this year to see the trial runs of the Bloodhound SSC in preparation for the record attempt in South Africa next year.

Because you believe that you have left the Yankees sell your aircraft?


Even if your flight was better they would let you crumbs   

Too true Gazou, too true




There is a group of IMPS modellers who now specialise in What-if aircraft unfortunately these aircraft were probably 'if only'. I'm tempted by one of the ideas of a converted Concorde bomber called Vedette. Very spooky looking!

[peter61_uk]

You are very lucky to see all those aircraft at the air show from your garden. I'm hopefully coming down to Farnborough this year to see the trial runs of the Bloodhound SSC in preparation for the record attempt in South Africa next year.


Too true Gazou, too true




There is a group of IMPS modellers who now specialise in What-if aircraft unfortunately these aircraft were probably 'if only'. I'm tempted by one of the ideas of a converted Concorde bomber called Vedette. Very spooky looking!

During this year's show they are opening up the "wind Tunnels" for the public to see them for the first time since they were installed after they were brought back here after WWII. They are a short walk from the show site, at the moment there are no details other than they will be open ........ At the time they were so advanced we had nothing like them......... Much of our jet aircraft development was carried out using them.

[John W E]

hi there Nick
 
Many moons ago when I first joined Rolls Royce Aero Division in the 1980's I got to know several of the 'old timers' working there and one guy in particular was head of the inspection dept., and he had numerous tales to tell of Merlin engines and soforth - but the most interesting story he used to tell was all the fixtures and fittings for the TSR2 engines were all shrouded in secrecy until they had the word to scrap all of them and even though bits could be used on other engines they all had to be scrapped and proved to be scrapped by literally putting a gas axe through the fixtures so they were cut in half and all of the engine turbine bits had to be seen to be destroyed by an official from Government.   Makes ya think why was the TSR2 scrapped - we do know the reason given about it being too expensive and over budget etc., but was there something underlying to stop its production so suddenly.
 
I think and believe what the inspector used to say - it was too advanced for some country who we owed lots of money too from WWII.
 
aye
john

[plug]

TSR2.....years in front of it's time imho, it was scrapped because a lot of jealousy and envy had a lot to do with it, same thing happened with concord a certain country spit the tit out and tried to stop it coming in.
regards Jack.

[raflaunches]

I think that's why there is a saying about the TSR2 getting three of the four requirements right failing on politics.
It's now become symmomiious with the British aircraft industry, it's a real shame that our politicians didn't have the backbone to continue with what we had started- just imagine what aircraft would have been in service today in military and civilian use.
Any way that's the past and we can't change it but we can dream of what could have been!


I forgot to mention that I was looking through my stash of unbuilt model kits and found two kits of the Fairey Rotodyne (one Airfix, the other Revell). When I finish my current build I'm considering building one as built and the other as the military version that was planned, it will require some scratch building and some extending but could look very purposeful.


I'm looking forward to visiting Farnborugh especially now that the wind tunnels are open to the public.
My Dad is looking forward to it too, he loves anything with the aircraft industry and the RAF, he got to speak to Roly Beamont about the TSR2 and he was very passionate about it persuading my Dad to join up!

[raflaunches]

I managed to get a couple of more aircraft kits this weekend in 1/144 and 1/72 scale.


In 1/144 scale I got Nimrod AEW 3, Hawker P1121, and a Bristol RA 6.
In 1/72 scale I'm quite lucky to get this one a Armstrong Whitworth AW52! The flying wing with winglet fins.


Certainly interesting what was out there, at least some of the kit manufacturers are getting the hint what the aircraft modeller likes!

[ballastanksian]

It is the same with our motorcycle industry. Two variants of defeatism that saw it die a broken and shadow form of its early self.

1. A Director of BSA was asked what the British Motorcycle industry was gojng to release to compete with the then new imported Lambretta and Vespa products? The reply was 'We do not think we can compete' FAIL:O(

2. An Irish professor (this is serious and not a joke) in the sixties had developed an early form of computer modeling that allowed him to prototype and assess the performance of an engine design thus working out its peccadillos and issues without the need to make many prototype engines and throw away the failures thus saving money and materials. The Professor demonstrated this technology to representatives from the British Motorcycle industry and stated that he would require a staff of three -five technicians, so much space to do his experiments and a not unreasonable amount of funding to be able to do his work for them.

The reaction was a lack of interest. This Professor then went to Japan and showed his technology to one of the big motorcycle manufacturers who basically jumped on him and asked when he could start. They offered him as many staff as he required, funding that was incredulous compared with what he asked for and whatever he needed to conduct his experiments.

The upshot of this was that the following year the Japanese motorcycles dominated the race scene leaving our machines in their wake.

I heard this form a man who used to part own a motorcyle dealership and heard it from one of the reps.

I do not know what we have to do to make this country great again, but I fear it would not be pretty. Anyhow back to topic....

I wargame WW2 specialising in the North African campaign and am building two fleets of Tudor era vessels in 1:300th scale.

[Circlip]

A Director of BSA was asked what the British Motorcycle industry was gojng to release to compete with the then new imported Lambretta and Vespa products?

   Never heard of the Triumph Tigress/BSA Sunbeam?
 
  The Irish professor was no doubt engaged in two stroke research at Queens college in Ireland?
 
  Don't forget that BSA were the only British manufacturer to make use of plans "Liberated" from the East German manufacturer ZM après WW2. Since the Germans had put the kickstart on the wrong side, the Drawing Office printed them in reverse and started to manufacture the noisy little s*d called the BSA Bantam. That wasn't really a success story though was it?
 
  Now where can I buy a Matchless????  Another unsuccessful design.
 
   Greed and expense screwed British industry.
 
  Regards   Ian

[ballastanksian]

I have to admit not!

I reckon you are right about the professor and am pleased that the chap who told me this was not telling porkie pies. I know that the British Mc industry did produce a few designs of scooter but they did not seem to catch on as you mention.

[Circlip]

Kickstart on BSA Sunbeam was an ankle cracker and when asked "How a young Lady was expected to manage to start it" The MD of BSA said "If she can't kickstart it, she shouldn't be trying to ride it!"
 
     
 
    Tigress was a 250cc 4 stroke Twin and went like something off a stick. With a bit of thought the engine in a conventional frame would/could have been a temporary winner. A few years later, Mr. Honda had a "Dream"
 
  Unfortunately, the British scooter industry had to play catch up to an existing market created cos we bombed the ***p out of the Italian aircraft manufacturing plants in WW2.  (Piaggio VESPA ?) 
 
  Regards  Ian.

[ballastanksian]

Ah, that is a good point about the bombing!


Thinking back to the supersonic harrier, that looks a beautiful machine, so sleek but versatile. I wonder if it had the same lift problems as the early F35 that was too heavy to lift unless devoid of stores?

[raflaunches]

Not too sure since they actually tested a fully built prototype, however, they did test a modified Pegasus engine with a reheat plenum chamber and four hot nozzles and it produced a lot of raw thrust, I think about 36,000lbs, the engine is on display in the Fleet Air Arm museum in Yeovilton. I think they knew that the aircraft was not perfect and presumedly they would have produced a bigger wing like they did with the original Harrier, it's all very interesting!


P.S. I like your tank collection, I've noticed we have got some similar interests, and good luck with your Tudor fleets, another interesting era, can't get enough of the Mary Rose.