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[vnkiwi]

Seem's everyone has an opinion on this.
I've been playing with laser-cutting and 3D-printing for some time now, not using bureau's though, much to expensive for me. Did get some laser-cutting done in Geelong a few years back, very expensive exercise.
Anyway, my thoughts are, that these are just new methods of manufacture, same as cast metal, resin bits, photo-etch etc, and because I am a Design Draughtsman, use electronic drawing programs, (now-a-day's anyway) to design and draw the models I build, find these new methods of use to get more accurate parts.
I have also laterly been fiddling with scanning, to gain even more accuracy when replicating existing historic craft.
I attach a couple of photos taken around 6 months ago.
cheers
vnkiwi

[RAAArtyGunner]

It's a funny one isn't it, no matter how many hours I spend converting printed plans into vector files I'm always treated as a bit of a modelling leper because I choose to cut my stuff with a laser instead of a Stanley knife, quite often I hear, oh that's lovely model.............................but then again you have a laser, yep that's right, no skill in interpreting plans, quite often so old and faded they can barely be read, choosing materials, sanding, filling, painting, taking molds and everything else, once they hear the word "laser cutter" that's pretty much it, it must have put itself together.
By the way this only applies to those down by the water,never had probs here on mayhem.

Phill

Mermod,
 
    Mate, surely we can fix that for you 

[Circlip]

It's gonna screw the Flee bay sellers "Hand Built" qualification on the "Vintage Model" specs.    Then again, it's only "Vintage" if it's made from wood.
 
 
   Regards  Ian.

[Netleyned]

It's gonna screw the Flee bay sellers "Hand Built" qualification on the "Vintage Model" specs.    Then again, it's only "Vintage" if it's made from wood.
 
 
   Regards  Ian.

And then only made with a vintage fretsaw, bow saw, block plane and Archimedes drill,
Hoof glue and finished with beeswax.

Ned

[mermod]

Mermod,
 
    Mate, surely we can fix that for you 

Thanks RAArtyGunner

[warspite]

Is this time for a new terms for various modellers
 
Shipwrights usually means to me (and i stand corrected in advance) these are highly skilled craftsmen who build from stock materials all the parts for their vessels from brass stock, wood, cloth etc, vessels like HMS Victory, Museum quality 'Hand Crafted' vesels of all eras. 
 
Would a new term be Modelwrights  - those that build models where the hull is premade and all the items inside and out are added, whether they be bought premade (fittings) or scratch built from recycled materials or stock. 
 
and finally Techwrights, those that design, verify and print the vessels with some bought items. 
 
I build vessels that are plastic fantastics - not having the time, the patience, the skill sets to create beutifully crafted from stock boats - I know my limitations and I enjoy the thought I converted that from a static to a working vessel. The 3D question is it is only another tool is right - akin to Airfix etc (no offence ment), the quality is currently up there with Airfix etc and will get better - Most people when viewing a model looks at the detailing in awe - they are even more impressed with the modellers who have built from scratch, than the Airfix kits, but if they have been altered to be correct and painted correctly, they are more impressed.
 
I would love to 3D print - the number of parts out there for vessels is limited, 3D created parts will fill in the availability of these parts.
 
IE - take one class of ship - be a frigate, tug etc. how many different parts on the class are there as each ship is built the design changes over the years - refits change bits, if the part is drawn in 3D, it can be altered to suit the revised version with little effort, different positions of the parts, ie an open hatch rather than a close one, not to forget scale - how many people have asked where they can get a particular scale of an item - 1 item in 3D recreated in the chosen scale with the same detail (almost).
 
The above is my opinion and is not intended to offend.

[vnkiwi]

Why create new, when old terms will still apply.
I use my 2 printers to make the iron fittings for my models, these I draw from my research.
Down here at the bottom of the world, fittings are difficult to procure, and expensive.
However, for the boats I model, very little is available commercially, so I produce my own.
Also, I make my own 'people' to crew my boats, afterall a boat needs a crew.
These I scan from real people, then print to whatever scale I want.
Only recently have I contemplated printing whole hulls, but due to the small print envelope I have, then these are in sections.
This for 1/48th scale display only, so far.
Timber items, some can be laser-cut, some cnc produced, but components only, as prefer to build similar to the original.
This way I can get a very accurate model, in a shorter time.
Well that's the theory, anyway
cheers
 

[Marmoi]

I have been using 3D printing technology of one sort or another for nearly 10 years now at work and have always gone through agencies as the cost of machines and materials have been very high.
The last couple of years have seen the cost of producing the models drop dramatically as in where we used to pay nearly £300 for a prototype, that same part is now £30. I have never found a single method that is capable of doing the variations required to suit all modelling requirements. If you are looking for strength and large pieces then the Nylon sintering approach is best, but the detail is not as good. If you are looking for high detail and smaller items then the Resin system is very good, but strength is not brilliant although this is improving with newer materials.
I do not think that over the next few years there will be a 3D home printer on the market that will answer our aspirations for the technology. As with 2D printers, there are still a lot of variations out there depending on what you want to use it for and how much you wish to pay. The current batch of Home printers are akin to the first dot matrix printers of the 80’s, it’s the colour lasers of today that we are looking forward too. 

[inertia]

Marmoi
Those guns etc are pretty impressive stuff. Which 3D CAD program(s) did you use to create the print files?
DM

[Marmoi]

I use Autodesk Inventor, gave up with AutCad 2D years ago  used to drive me mad trying to do 3D.

[inertia]

I use Autodesk Inventor, gave up with AutCad 2D years ago  used to drive me mad trying to do 3D.

Me, too. I only have AutoCAD R14 so the 3D stuff is all keyboard commands - life is just too short. How far are you from Nottingham, BTW?
DM

[vnkiwi]

Hi Guy's,
One more question, what CAD programs does everyone use to produce their print files please?
I have been using 'sketchup Pro' for the fittings I need, AutocadLT2004 for 2D drawing and laser files, DelftshipPro for my boat hulls, and now netfabbStudio and Scanect for scanning objects for printing.
I've used Autocad since 2.8, and its not the best around, was cheap back then and everyone used it, but 3D was a nightmare, and still is.
Looked at Solidworks and ProE about 10 years ago, way out of my budget, and not easy to learn, but what the company my brother works for used in their design offices, along with their big SLA 3D machines.
I'm waiting for the inkjet type 3D printers to come down to a realistic price, then I can produce my wee people in full colour as is available in a couple of bureau's in Europe and US.
I have an UP!mini for aroung 6 months, and just purchased an UP!plus 3D ABS/PLA printers.
cheers
vnkiwi 

[carlmt]

Currently, all my 2D work is with AutoCAD 2007, and for the 3D stuff I first draw the basics in 2D then export to Sketchup.
Initially I used Sketchup Pro, but I had a problem with exporting to stl format for 3D printing so had to download Sketchup 2013 (free) which allows the addition of a plugin to export to stl. Before, I was exporting to dae then taking this into Meshlab to convert to stl, but the scale and size of the components went to pot  .
All the kit drawings are done in AutoCAD and the kit instruction diagrams are in Sketchup.
 
Been using AutoCAD since 1990 and CAD generally since 1984.
Carl 

[Marmoi]

Hi VNkiwi,


I have used Inventor for several years now and have noticed that Autodesk have now bought out Inventor LT and a free 123D modelling program. For final STL checking I also use netfabbstudio

What version of Scanect are you using for your 3D scanning?

When moving STL files around you must be very careful to specify export and import constraints as the files do not hold any scaling data.


Mark 

[vnkiwi]

Hi Marmoi,
Have used 123D since early beta, and whilst liked some of the early beta versions, don't really think much of the released version.
The scanned and printed action man in an earlier post was generated using my camera and 123D catch, but found it not very accurate and time consuming to prep before loading into the cloud.
Can't remember which version of Scanect, but is a very early version. If I remember will have a look when I get back from Holiday.
Thanks found that out already
cheers
 

[warspite]

I would love to have a 3D printer, as Marmoi says the better quality machines are the goal - then again is this not the way of the world - we buy the best piece of kit, only to find that within 6 months it is replaced with something better - moores law.
 
I dont use 3D printers at work - but using AutoCad 2009 (still trying to get to grips with the new ribbon layout of 2013) I generate views of the company equipment in 3D solids for showing what our customers client is going to get when installed (it also helps with the tenders) - this is an old pc running windows xp 32 bit, AMD64 4200 dual core with 4GB of ram and a nvidia8500 graphics card at 1GB, so as it is 32 bit I only have 3GB of ram available as the GPU takes up the other 1GB that the processor will allow at the 32 bit.
 
wish list means either a new machine or win 7 64 bit replacing the xp prof OS, and then more ram and a new hard drive to put the new OS on.
 
I do have Inventor 7, but time constraints mean that over the years I have forgotten how to use the program efficiently. That and the kids having all their electronics devices on over christmas meant I have to wait till I get some free time to go on this pc, otherwise the elec bill will be sky high.

[warspite]

Also, I make my own 'people' to crew my boats, afterall a boat needs a crew.
These I scan from real people, then print to whatever scale I want.
Only recently have I contemplated printing whole hulls, but due to the small print envelope I have, then these are in sections.
This for 1/48th scale display only, so far.
cheers
 

Did you ever think of doing a triple E construction?, but would it still take 38 weeks 

[grendel]

you can always change the workspace to autocad classic, then it will be the same as you are used to, I have customised my autocad desktop at work to show both the classic style menu and the ribbon menu, that way I will get used to using the ribbon, but when stuck can revert to the old way of doing things.
Grendel

[warspite]

Classics maybe the easy way out  , if the exercise is to aclimatise with the latest software then it is not a good option, especially as if the need to change career path/company means that you miss out the functionality needed to keep pace with the wippersnappers  .
 
I like creating the drawings I do - it helps our customer and their blue chip client to see what they are getting, helping the client see how big the system is and how it works - as a 2D drawing - plan and elevations etc can be hard to understand by even some very experienced engineers, whereas various 3D solid views give a completely different prospective.
 
I am even considering getting out the john roberts book for the aggiz to see what parts I can create for my corvette.

[vnkiwi]

Hi Warspite,
I use Autocad 2014 and Revit 2014 at work, mainly Revit now, and the later half of 2013 was a real pain in the proverbial, just to much work, which meant modeling took a very small back seat. Unfortunately, these yearly upgrades seem to be mainly menu swap arounds and changing appearence, to generate a yearly income for Autodesk, rather than any real improvement.
Some illustration work for a friends book has also eaten into prescious modelling time as well, but it has been most enjoyable, resulting in more detailed drawings for some historical NZ boats I have been researching for some 8 years now. The UP!Mini printer has a 2micron resilution, whil the new software with the new one will go 1.5micron. This for what I am doing is ok, as long as you pay attention to part orientationAs to engineers, and clients not understanding plans and elevations, I now place 3D thumbnail details next to the standard details on a sheet, simply so the newer ones can get their heads around what is happening. Also get the odd engineer who has no idea what he has just designed until its drawn, but that has always been so.
I had to upgrade to a new Sony Viao i7 last year after my old (purchased in 2005) Vaio died. New one is windows7, and 64bit, but still runs my AutocadLT2004, but not my Autocad2007, however prefer LT2004 for 2D drawing at home.
Will be spending more time fiddling and modelling this year
cheers
 

[Pat Matthews]

PatMats amazing build, this is a true scratch build IMO.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2042278

Thanks for all that, and BTW, it's done now... my 2nd (almost) entirely 3DP model boat. Fine detail is possible, but as said before: It won't come off of any "affordable" printer, and maybe never will. Prices for printers will come down, but so they did for CNC machine tools... and we have yet to see these on EVERY desktop, in EVERY home!

Another question for which I have found no answers: What is the longevity of the various printable plastics?

I expect that SLS nylon, and the various thermoplastics used in filament printing, will last about as long as the Pyramids... but I would use neither for most detail parts in a fine model. Good detail comes with the UV-cure printers (stereolithography and multi-jet)... and something about a gooey liquid resin merely cured with a flash of light leaves me worried.

Museums and serious collectors expect at least 100 year life for their acquisitions. And we've seen in the past that things like lead fittings and cotton thread just don't hold up. I've seen products like 50-year old styrene kits go all brittle, and I (and others) have noticed that Evergreen's styrene can go brittle and crack easily after just a few years... maybe due to UV, or loss of plasticizers, or reaction to CA glue, I don't know.

I'd dearly love to find any scholarly studies and predictions about the life expectancy of these UV cured resins...

[Marmoi]

I still have a resin stereolythography print I had done for work in 1999 and apart from a little yellowing it is still as strong and as flexible as it was when it first arrived.


However - the formulations of the resins is constantly changing and varies from machine manufacturer to machine manufacturer, just like printing inks and toners.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

If you can not draw using CAD, then a 3d printer, or even a laser cutter will make a great paper weight.

Those that build their own 3d printers, or CNC machines or Laser cutters are enjoying another "hobby".
To make these things function you really need knowledge of all the components, from bearings to stepper motors, driver circuit boards and all that entails.
 Once it is assembled many of the hobby assembled machines print like they are dispensing
vermicelli, or angel hair pasta. Most blokes would do just as well piling up cement from a hot glue gun.

If you have the time and skills, then assembling your own printer, or cnc router can be fun.
For most it is an exercise in patience and learning. It would be better to learn and practice your
CAD drafting skills and order from Shapeways than to buy or build an "affordable" 3d printer.

Shapeways and other printers for hire have machines that will be able to provide a resolution that
takes 80 percent of the work out of building from scratch.
.
..
...
A recent US Navy model below, Hospital ship printed and assembled.

[Pat Matthews]

+1

When I first saw this big USN model, which is a “waterline” model for wind tunnel testing and which was printed in one go in a humongous printer, I asked Dana Wegner (Curator of Navy Models, as in the historical type, at the same facility), if he was relaxing his specifications for construction of display models. “No” was the answer, the plastics still haven’t proven their 100 year life, along with CA glue and other materials we modelers take for granted. You still need to make those models from wood and brass, and you need to peg or screw mount items to the deck, never glued!

[grendel]

having just got a small 3 axis machine I am in the process of setting it up, I have a power supply now and it goes through its set up procedure, next to get the pc talking to the machine, after which I need to get the drill up and running, whilst typing I just had a thought, you can get those hand held freeform 3d printer pens - hmm I wonder??
(the biggest problem was getting the win xp computer to see the network to get the software onto it).
Grendel