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[Neil]

I've just been looking at cut off valves for water pipes..............has anyone come across these two manifolds for hose pipes and if so how stiff are those taps.


the reason of asking is whether a servo would be able to shift the tap..............this would be a dream come true if they could.


if one of these could be utilised with servos operating the taps, only one centrifugal pump would be needed.


saw them on Amazon.


neil

[tonyH]

Hi Neil,

Some are stiffer than others. They're from normal garden 1/2" hoses or from the larger, commercial 3/4" ones. There are several about from Hozelock etc. so it's a case of going to your nearest garden centre/hardware shop and find the loosest! Just DON'T USE THE HOSE FITTINGS! If the pressure is too high they can pop off and that would not be entertaining atall!

I'm on a similar quest to you because I'm playing with a similar problem on an anti-sub trawler tried out with the Thornycroft hydraulic propulsion system in 1917/18.

Good Luck

Tony

[Neil]

Hi Neil,

Some are stiffer than others. They're from normal garden 1/2" hoses or from the larger, commercial 3/4" ones. There are several about from Hozelock etc. so it's a case of going to your nearest garden centre/hardware shop and find the loosest! Just DON'T USE THE HOSE FITTINGS! If the pressure is too high they can pop off and that would not be entertaining atall!

I'm on a similar quest to you because I'm playing with a similar problem on an anti-sub trawler tried out with the Thornycroft hydraulic propulsion system in 1917/18.

Good Luck

Tony

thanks tony.........been chatting to Dave Milbourn and it is possible that i'm going down the route of one pump, one manifold with all valves set to open and having a 12v solenoid switch on each branch which would then allow independent flow on any of the jet nozzles.


your trawler sounds a really interesting project.........feel free to post some pics of her on here..............if I can post a Lamborghini aventador..........I have no objections to a water jet drive armed trawler at all.........would love to see both real and model boats. neil.

[Neil]

The rudder has come along a pace and the laminates have glued well.


the square tubing has been glued into the "trough" with 2 part epoxy and the rudder skeg has had a brass tube insert glued into it to take the round rod  forming the rudder bar.


the top steering tiller has been basically cut to shape which links to the servo and the rudder has been cut with inserts by my invaluable jewellery  piercing saw. the rudder stock brackets have been fitted and the stern post drilled to take the brackets.................and all has been dry fitted together............IT WORKS, lol...........and without a hitch or mistake.............just brilliant.

[Charlie]

Hi Neil,
Seeing the Rudder in place makes me wonder how maneuverable the full size boat would have been, seeing as how there will be no wash from a prop flowing past the Rudder. During your research, have you found any contemporary accounts from her crew of how she handled?
Charlie

[tonyH]

Hi Neil, thanks for the interest in the trawler but I'm still at the early stage of planning. There are no obvious plans of the installation but the hull was a standard build and there's lots of written stuff on the original model trials in 1917 and the trials on the Thames. Also, I'm going back to the original propulsion development from 1890's onwards.
Have a look at jacuzzi diverter valves for the outlet side - may be of interest

Charlie, I'll scan the 3 pages of stuff on the Duke of Nortumberland trials etc. as a separate reply.

Tony

[Neil]

Hi Neil,
Seeing the Rudder in place makes me wonder how maneuverable the full size boat would have been, seeing as how there will be no wash from a prop flowing past the Rudder. During your research, have you found any contemporary accounts from her crew of how she handled?
Charlie

I wonder that, but on looking at the diagrams of the machinery, I think that each jet  could be used independently and as such would aid steering. however, the rudder is colossal compared with contemporary  pulling and sailing and later single engine lifeboats, so I suppose this helps. however the boat I am modelling mine on, and theres been a change of plan here in that I have chosen the City of Glasgow again, had the nozzles for forward propulsion fitted aft of the bilges on that boat and much closer and deeper than the Duke of Northumberland.


you can see the jets on the stern of the City of Glasgow on this museum which is in the Science museum in London, close under the counter. however, I haven't a clue what the two small oval marks are, astern of the jet nozzle,

[Neil]

ill have a look at Jacuzzi valves, thanks........and Charlie..........I think that reports from crew would be held at RNLI headquarters, and when they turn round and offer no help by the way of plans of boats for modellers, I just can't be bothered in contacting them for more "hard to get and find" info.........think I'd just be adding stress to what has been a pretty easy and straight forward  build so far, but thanks for the thoughts and interest. much appreciated from all who have commented so far.

[tonyH]

Hi Neil & Charlie,

Scanning is a waste of time but this is the link to the trials report on the Duke of Northumberland which had, as far as I am aware, the same propulsion system etc. The nozzles were changed but the principle was the same so that the rudder had some effect but not hugely.
The system was developed from the original Ruthven/Thornycroft mechanics used on the torpedo boat trials of 1881 etc. The main modification being the shape of the inlet side to give a smoother flow. Bearing also in mind that the efficiency of the system as a whole was only in the region of 25% compared to the screw equivalent in the 40-50% range.

Here's the link https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/The_Engineer_1890/09/05

Cheers

Tony

PS You may have to sign in to Grace's but it's OK and download the 19 pages but you need pages 192/193/194.

PPS Hi Neil, Just noticed the other thread about sound modules. The pump ran about 400rpm only so maybe a grumble rather than a whine?

[Charlie]

That's a great link Tony. Neil was correct, they did use the jets to manoeuvre the boat. This is an extract from 'The Engineer', which answers my question perfectly


During the early part of the run we had an eloquent though unrehearsed exhibition of the admirable manoeuvring power of the boat. A sudden gust of wind having blown off the cap of the pilot, who under Captain Chetwynd's direction handled the boat during the day, by a few turns of the valve handle the little vessel was stopped and put full speed astern in a few moments. The steering being just too fine, the boat ran right over the cap, and the deck hand, who had a boat book ready, failed to catch it; the direction of the boat was again reversed, and after circling round the cap it was picked up, the engines all the time going full speed in the only direction in which they run, and making about 400 revolutions per min.; the engineers and firemen to all intents and purposes being quite ignorant of what was being done. Indeed, one of the greatest advantages of the boat is that it can be entirely manoeuvred by one man, who has never to give an order to reverse his engines, and never to wait until that operation is completed before the vessel is again under his command. By merely turning the handles, which control the delivery from the turbine he can go ahead or astern, slowly or at full speed as he wishes, and as he can also steer his ship to a nicety he is quite independent of a coxswain. Many times during the trial under notice was the service of a coxswain dispensed with, and the boat was freely manoeuvred in and out amidst barges, boats, and steamers by turbine alone.

[Neil]

Thanks guys , that was a very interesting read, and just shows how manoeuvrable these boats were, which to be honest actually surprises me.

[Neil]

a week or so ago I sent off a request to the Science Museum asking if anyone could possibly take some photos of the steam lifeboat  City of  Glasgow as I was building a model of her and had little information........


this was the reply I received yesterday.


what more could anyone ask..........brilliant response.

Dear Neil,
Many thanks for your enquiry and interest in the Science Museum’s collections, and apologies for the delay in reply while the request was processed. It sounds like a very interesting project, especially as it will be a working model, and to raise money for the RNLI too. 
The model in our collections is object number 1912-130. I will be able to take photographs of this model for you, from all angles as you suggest, and will try to find the jets you mention around the stern – is this by the rudder? Are there any other details you are particularly hoping to capture? I’m afraid I am not a ship model expert so please excuse my questions!
Also just to forewarn you, it might take a couple of weeks to get the photos to you, as it is currently in quite deep storage and in a crate, so it will take a bit of time. I hope that’s OK, and we will try and do it as soon as we can. Once I have taken the photos the model will go back into storage, which is why I am particularly keen to get all the details you require because that will be my opportunity. 
I look forward to hearing from you and hope you have a good weekend.
Best wishes,
Natasha


I  replied immediately......what a wonderful lady.

[Canterbury Coxswain]

It's so nice when 'humans' with courtesy and manners reply in such  a way that you can understand what they say and feel they are trying to help, when we seem to be in a world and 'work ethic' of 'I don't have time'. Great contact Neil and I hope they come up with what you want and it helps with the build process.
Keep up the good work and maybe Natasha will get a Christmas card!!
Kim

[Neil]

It's so nice when 'humans' with courtesy and manners reply in such  a way that you can understand what they say and feel they are trying to help, when we seem to be in a world and 'work ethic' of 'I don't have time'. Great contact Neil and I hope they come up with what you want and it helps with the build process.
Keep up the good work and maybe Natasha will get a Christmas card!!
Kim

I don't send many Kim, but that lady will certainly get one from the snowy north............and yes I totally agree with you.
it actually gave me a lump in my throat how helpful the lady was......a lovely change from somewhat the norm everywhere these days.

[derekwarner]

Well Neil....that Natasha sounds like a bit of allright  ....[opps.......helpful I mean ]....

Just for interest I checked the distance in travel time from Fleetwood to Glasgow = 3 hours & 7 minutes......and knowing this if would be no real difference for me to drive from Wollongong to Newcastle = 3 hours & 1 minute

When you were in OZ....you would have no hesitation of driving such a distance...so why not go to the Museum yourself?...and afterwards buy Natasha a McDonalds 1/4 Pounder & Coke.......or a Pie & a Pint of Guiness black beer

Derek 

[Neil]

hi mate.........went to Glasgow last Tuesday for the launch of the new ferry............it took 4 and a quarter hours the weather was so bad.......torrential rain all the way............3 hours is in perfect conditions in good light traffic............but the museum the model is in storage at is in London.................and not even for Sophia Loren flashing her bits would I drive to London these days.................and a train down there would cost me 120 quid.............I'll send her a chrimbo card, lol.

[derekwarner]

Goodness ...I sure got the location cocked up  ...............120 English pounds for rail travel to London  ...so if you did, you could always call on Liz & Phil to put you up for the night 

In OZ, with my Pensioner Card ...I could travel from Wollongong to Newcastle return for $2.00 AUD 

[Neil]

Goodness ...I sure got the location cocked up  ...............120 English pounds for rail travel to London  ...so if you did, you could always call on Liz & Phil to put you up for the night 

In OZ, with my Pensioner Card ...I could travel from Wollongong to Newcastle return for $2.00 AUD 

it would probably be cheaper to fly to London, but I hate the place with a loathsomeness.........my god Derek.....that's cheap.........get 10% off if we lucky, lol., and I'm sure Phil would put me up, as I have met and spoken to him personally twice..............don't know about Liz though, never actually met her except at arms length when during her silver jubilee she unveiled the war memorial at the museum in Canberra. lol

[derekwarner]

Yes ...in NSW we have the OPAL card system for all public transport.....add some $ to your card & the computer deducts your fare from the card

As pensioners, we have a $2.00 return fare any where in NSW during one day.......so Wollongong to Newcastle return is $2.00....if I stayed for a night it is also it would $2.00 for the next day return or to anywhere

Sorry to be off thread ....7.00 AM from Wollongong to Central...ride on the Sydney harbour ferry system all day ...best harbour in the World & catch the 5:08 PM from Central back to Wollongong all for $2.00 

I do remember the day when ERII opened the War Memorial at the museum

[Neil]

Yes ...in NSW we have the OPAL card system for all public transport.....add some $ to your card & the computer deducts your fare from the card

As pensioners, we have a $2.00 return fare any where in NSW during one day.......so Wollongong to Newcastle return is $2.00....if I stayed for a night it is also it would $2.00 for the next day return or to anywhere

Sorry to be off thread ....7.00 AM from Wollongong to Central...ride on the Sydney harbour ferry system all day ...best harbour in the World & catch the 5:08 PM from Central back to Wollongong all for $2.00 

I do remember the day when ERII opened the War Memorial at the museum

that is amazing Derek...........could never imagine our governments  according us those well earned privileges ...........as for ER11..........it was a good sunny day, and the school being next door building to the memorial gave a "guard of honour" with all the year 7/8 kids to line the way..............being a whinging pom I was given the pleasant duty of taking the kids down to the parade, lol Phil told me off for not wearing a tie on a scorching hot day, lol.