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Author Topic: Engel Gato SS212  (Read 31202 times)

sub john

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Engel Gato SS212
« on: August 31, 2015, 09:58:28 PM »

HI All
        I thought i would start this topic by giving some of the electronic spec that the submarine had to meet, the main ballast tank controllers had to be solid state using power mosfet transistors for the forward and reverse plus it had to have dynamic breaking  they also had to work the same as the electronics in a standard servo but much bigger. These unit are linked to a lot of electronics which will keep the submarine perfectly horizontal, a couple of days ago i put the sub in a 9FT paddling pool as i could not wait to see if it would all come together and work i must confess i did have a few doubt's myself the sub was tried with out the deck on but i had to put some lead in to get the trim roughly right, started to dive the sub and i was very surprised to see just how well it all worked you could set the sub to be just 5inc down below the surface and it would just hover perfectly still in the water. If you looking at the gears on the ballast tank through the pressure plate top you could see the just the gears hunting to keep the sub level just moving a few grams of water about to keep the sub level and to keep it at a given depth.


        The sub all so had to have circuit to vent off air when the sub was starting to dive this circuit was all so linked to the front hydroplanes to make them fold down as it dives and then when the sub surfaces it folds the hydroplanes back up to take air back in to put it back to 1 bar pressure in other words normal air pressure this all so stops condensation. This circuit is all so linked to the electronics for the tank control steering and the differential throttle control  for the main drive motors had to switch out when the sub dives, the mosfet speed controllers that where  designed had been built in such a way it you weeded up on of the props the speed controller will shut down the software that is driving the mosfets so pulse by pulse if it is pulling heavy current more than it has been told to do it will shut the drives to the motor down.


        The sub has to switch it self on when you put it into the water, back hydroplanes are all level controlled as well front hydroplanes work on level control and depth  control as well. All the electronics sit on alloy plate as cooling for all mosfet drive circuit sorry to say guys i don't think you will be doing this with micro switches you will see magic smoke if you try.


        All sound effects will be stored on a micro SD card must say a big thanks to Tim for editing the diesel sound that he did for me i think it turned out really well  i am really pleased with the way it has turned out at the moment as it should be interesting to see how it all works when it is finished will have to try to put some pictures up. Have read a couple of posts on making black smoke i would like to fit this in to the sub i think i know how to do it but again it means hitting it with some electronics to get it to work but we will see.
                    All the best Sub John
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timgarrod

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2015, 05:19:02 PM »

Few photos, nearly ready for the water
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2015, 09:39:41 PM »

Hi Tim
         I see you have put the pictures up that you took of the conning tower today, have still got allot more detail i won't to put on the conning tower and won't to do alto of detail on the deck as well. One thing that i was not happy about is when i started to drill the periscope shears they just started to brake up, if you look at the ones that are on the conning tower now i made them out of plastic card and plastic tube with brass tube inserts for the periscopes to work that took a week to make and was a bit of a hard job to fit all the LEDS in for search light light on front of periscope shears and port and starbird lights, but it all seems to be coming together. This afternoon when you went i finished making the railings for the front of the conning tower so all the railings on the conning tower are finished apart from a bit of filing.
         
         Don't know wheather to put weld lines on the hull and on the conning tower have seen it done on some models but the weld line seems to stick out to far from the hull, after seeing really photos of a real Gato so just don't know if to put them on or not i know you said you did not think it was worth it but i will see.


         On one of the pictures of the hull that you took you can see some electronics on top of a PCB board that board acts as a screen between the electronics on the top under that there is a alloy plate which as got all the main power control circuits for tanks motors regulator circuits which acts as a big heat sink for all the electronics, under that alloy plate there is 4 packs of Nickel metal hydride 7.2 volts at 4.6 amps which are wired in parallel when charged gives me about 19.4 amps which should give me a good running time. Under the battries metal shot has been placed along the hole of the hull inside the water tight compartment resin was poured on top to make a false floor for the battries to sit on, then in to the false floor was inserted captive nuts for the piston tanks to bold down to front and back which has lead to a very stable sub when on the surface it will be interesting to see how it all works out when it is finished.
      Nice to see you today Tim hope some of the advice helpted you  All the best John 
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salmon

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2015, 06:23:39 AM »

Any updates?
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2015, 09:20:59 PM »

HI Salmon
      You asked if there has been any up dates to the build, i have now fitted all railings on the deck have been doing a lot of detail for about a week and a half now most of the detail is done. I have just made the front light which sits towards the bow have got to do the one on the back of the sub, i am going to make the periscopes go up and down and get the radar go up and down and turn, but what the plan is in the next few days is take it out and try it before i get Pauline to do the pain job on it and then i will concentrate on getting all the nic-nacs to work over the winter. There is not much to do to the deck now before it is finished what slowed me down is all the electronics that is inside. I spook to Engel in Germany a few days ago told him what i had been up to with the fet switching and software for the piston tanks he said they tried to get it to work with fets but could not get it to work, one of the things he asked me was how long was the delay between filling and emptying the tanks and i said there was none. The controlled board for the tanks could be used to make a very big proportional servo it works that well.


       I will have to take some pictures and get them posted up trouble is i have been hard at it trying to get it built, and now weather is changing it does not help
                                      All the best John
                   PS Do you think i should do weld lines on the hull not sure what to do about this one
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salmon

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2015, 07:03:48 AM »

Simple answer is yes, do the weld lines. You are being painstakingly detail oriented on the superstructure that it would be a shame to leave the bottom naked.
Here is the launching of the Herring SS-233



You can see weld lines.


So, I would put them in. Look at other subs here at NavSource (you probably know of this resource) http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/04idx.htm


Part of the beauty of these subs, in my opinion, is the rougher surface and weld lines.
What ever you choose to do, it will be a great sub.
Peace,
Tom
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 10:20:09 PM »

HI Salmon
      Thanks for saying that you think i should do the weld lines, i think that i will now put them on trouble is the weld lines seem to look big on some of the subs and that puts me off them. I have just been playing around doing weld lines on plastic card using  thin thread gluing them down with super glue just to see what they would look like after being sprayed sanded down and sprayed again and the end result it looked quite good, like you said it would be ashame to do detail on the deck and conning tower and leave the hull bear.


      On the Engal Gato kit they put the inlet's and outlet's for the piston tanks on the out side of the hull  which quite supprized me why i say that is as the pistons take water in or out they will turn in to bow and Stearn thrusters mine are in the free flood area which seems to work quite well as i can put the sub in to a hover just sitting dead still in the water


      The seals on the original kit for the folding hydroplanes and for the prop shafts that idea was scraped and went for much better seals using sealed bearings and lip seals end result you don't get air leaking out of the prop shafts when the pistons suck water in the air pressure inside the air compartment goes up it starts to leak, them when you surface the pistons blow the water out the air pressure can not go back to 1 bar pressure result is you suck water in through the prop shafts or the propshaft for the folding hydroplanes. That's another resin why i have fitted a venting system
      Thanks for sending picture and links on Gato
          All the best John
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salmon

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2015, 10:10:09 PM »

John,


I say it a lot, I love the Gato/Balao subs, your sub is coming along great. Please keep posting, even if it seems insignificant to you, there is a lot to learn and share in our hobby. This sub will look great in the water! I especially want to see your work on the welds.
Peace,
Tom
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2015, 09:35:39 PM »

HI Tom
      I must say i do like the Gato/Balao subs the same as you, i think you built a revel Gato kit i saw a post of it some where on some other forum. When i do the weld lines on the Gato if I'm not happy with them i will just sand them off but I'm pretty sure i can do a decent job of it, i placed the conning tower on the deck today outside placed the guns on it and i can say it is starting to take shape all the detail seems to take for ever but i do won't to do a good job of it, and won't it to look the part when it is finished. I have done more detail on this sub than i ever did on any of the others i built but I'm going to give you a laugh now my misses Pauline has been going around telling every one including Tim that came over to see us that it is her that is building the sub not me so what can i say.


      Hopefully won't to take it out at the week end and try it spent all of yesterday getting all the electronics set up it was all working OK but just wonted to run through it and make sure. Will have to take some pictures of the deck and post them up on here.
 
      Won't to try and take the big sub out next year as the misses will not let me take it till then as i am still healing inside after the op
    Thanks for coming back all the best John
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abreese

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2015, 07:52:32 PM »

hello gato people.
well on with my engel now,not to sure about position for pressure tubes for pressure switch and static dive unit ?
the wiring diagram shows tubes at 30mm am I correct that this is 30mm from top edge of lower hull ?
cheers ab (my first sub build)
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2015, 10:30:48 PM »

HI ABREESE                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         the tubes need to be at 30mm down from the water line on the sub the hose on the static depth controller needs to be 472mm long hope it helps                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               all the best john
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abreese

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2015, 07:45:20 AM »

 :-)) thank you,put me on the right track,any tips on how to get workshop a bit warmer.
just sorting out a December boat show for club,use of swimming pool available,can get me old darnells wet.
many thanks.alan
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2015, 10:03:16 PM »

HI Alan
        You asked if i had any tips in getting your work shop warmer, sounds like you have the same problems as me when the winter comes you don't won't to be in the garage. This time of the year i do most of my stuff in my in door work shop much warmer. If you get any problems with building your gato give me a shout and hopefully i will be-able to sort it out, one of the biggest problems i have had was radio interference from the motors but i have sorted it out. Hope all goes well with your club show in December
     All the best John
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abreese

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2015, 11:52:14 AM »

thanks for reply,just placing piston tanks,servo brackets,etc going ok,also cut extra openings in middle deck piece can not work through a letter box!.
the show should be good,its local for my club and covers all aspects of the hobby,i have a darnell type v11 it goes really well in the swimming pool at the show,got her up from the bottom at 12 feet (toys eh).will be in touch if gato goes pear shaped.
cheers alan. for my sins commodore etherow model boat club stockport,check my website. etherowmodelboatclub.co.uk
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2015, 07:20:55 PM »

Hi Alan
    Know what you mean working through letter box with just that center hatch on the water tight compartment, if you left it standard with just the center hatch open with the size of my hands i would not get all the electronic stuff inside.
   
     Been working on this week all the gear boxes and seals to make all the periscopes work and the radar i won't the radar to go up and down and all so rotate, i won't to get the gato finished before the start of the shows next year but because I'm trying to get so many bits working like the real sub it slows you down.


      I won't to try to take the big Gato to some shows next year as this year has not good for me to think about taking the big beast out
     All the best John
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abreese

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2015, 07:41:59 AM »

hello john.
got my servos in place,also pressure switch in and piped,we have a model engineering supplies shop in Macclesfield,got some nirosta 2mm stainless rod for servos very handy shop.sort of seeing the big picture now wiring done etc,will have to go to gym more often she is putting on weight now.
late reply due to mrs b taking a dive without a parachute spent some time at a-e a few days of my meals she will soon be up and running.
cheers ab
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 06:54:11 PM »

HI Alan
      Fine on the 2mm stainless rod for the servo linkages, what i have used for mine is the Sullivan gold-N- rod which are the semiflexible 506 blue/gold snakes that they use for model planes that way you don't have to worry about rods binding on bits in the sub, and you can bend the snakes to where you won't them to go which seems to work quite well for me.


      Did you put your ballast tanks front and back in at a angle, the tanks in mine fit straight down the center of the hull don't like the idea of off set ballast tanks but i suppose if you are using the gel type lead-acid battery's then i suppose you have to put them in at a angle.
     
       Hope your trip to A-E was not to serious. In the last year i have had enough of hospitals all i could say is thank goodness i have been discharged now
                            All the best John
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salmon

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2015, 07:25:09 PM »

John,
I think we all can say "Thank Goodness" that you are discharged and doing well!
Peace,
tom
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abreese

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2015, 03:05:35 PM »

hello.
its mrs b that went to a-e soon be on her feet with my cooking!
fitted my dive tanks as per,this is my first build of this type so following ENGEL plans etc,looked at your pics noticed the Sullivan cables,,do you just epoxy the outer in the bulkhead? maybe a good idea for the forward bow planes this is at all angles from the bulkhead.could you tell me the type of epoxy you fixed your middle deck with seems to be a lot of polyester resins about?
regards ab  :-))
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2015, 10:06:45 PM »

HI Tom
      Seem to be doing quite well now, I push bike around 6 miles a day on my mountain bike and was even doing this just before i had the heart bypass it just goes to show even if you are fit it can still happen, if its in your jeans then there is not much you can do about it. That is what they said it was with me


      Thanks for good wishes all the best Sub John
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2015, 10:34:52 PM »

HI Alan
      When your wife starts cooking your food don't have to many hamburgers, but on a serious note the Sullivan cables yes you do glue them in to the bulk heads but i don't like to epoxy them in  what i do first is ruffian the outside up with wet and dry paper then cover the outside with thick super glue where it is going to go through the bulk head, then after the super glue has dried then i will epoxy them into place. Reason is why i do that super glue will stick to plastic  but the epoxy won't stick to the plastic outer on the Sullivan cable, then what i do is put the bellows on the end of the Sullivan cables in the free flood areas the way i look at it is if they work in a model plane then they are good enough for a model submarine. But what i should point out i support the outer of the Sullivan cables about every 5-6 inches in side of the sub and in the free flood areas this way it stops alot of play in the cables. All my servos are connected up this way


       In the instructions that Engel send out with the Gato kit it states to bond the pressure plate in to the hull use polyester resin mixed with micro balloons idea is it will thicken up the resin so it doesn't run away from the joint that you are trying to glue  they use this idea for gluing model planes to keep the weight down i must say i don't like this idea very much not for a sub, what i use is a thing called liquid metal and if you won't to thicken it up a little bit just add talcum power, this stuff is so strong you can drill and tap it. I use this for prop shafts stuffing boxes with bearings and seals every thing in side the sub has been bonded in with it, have built this sub and this time there is not one piece of wood inside it every thing is plastic or fiber glass or poly-cardonate sheet
    Hope it helps All the best John
 
       
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abreese

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2015, 08:10:22 AM »

 :-))thanks for reply.
will go with Sullivan cables,i used one on a warship I built a few years ago.also the liquid metal I have been chasing my tail a bit with the resin thing did not want to use the wrong stuff!.
mrs b a lot better,had a good meal last night weight going back on.off for a bit of r and r Tuesday taking my old darnell type seven for a dip,also doing a t-class darnell in tandem with gato converted her to dive cylinder still in drydock.
all the best ab
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2015, 05:30:40 PM »

HI Alan
      Fine on having a good meal last night, i built one of the darnell type 7 u-boat and i all so built the T-class where all these sub's went that i did years ago i do not know
      I'm going to send you  pm
         
  All the best John
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sub john

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2015, 01:28:34 PM »

few photos of the deck on the Gato.



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timgarrod

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Re: Engel Gato SS212
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2015, 05:58:30 PM »

looking good John,  :-)) now you had pratice on your's, i'll drop mine off  {-)
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