Topic: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES (Read 17871 times)

jtbyte · « **on:** October 29, 2015, 10:24:08 am »

British Dreadnought Classes

Dreadnought Class[/size] - HMS Dreadnought - Laid down 1905. Completed 1906.
Bellerophon Class - HMS Bellerophon, Superb, Temeraire - Laid down 1906-1907. Completed 1909.
St. Vincent Class - HMS St. Vincent, Vanguard, Collingwood - Laid down 1907-1908. Completed 1909-1910.
Neptune Class - HMS Neptune - Laid down 1909. Completed 1911.
Colossus Class - HMS Colossus, Hercules - Laid down 1909. Completed 1911.
Orion Class - HMS Orion, Monarch, Conqueror, Thunderer - Laid down 1909-1910. Completed 1912.
King George V Class - HMS King George V, Ajax, Centurion, Audacious - Laid down 1911. Completed 1912-1913.
Iron Duke Class - HMS Iron Duke, Marlborough, Benbow, Emperor of India - Laid down 1912. Completed 1914.
Erin Class - HMS Erin - Laid down 1911. Completed 1914
Agincourt Class - HMS Agincourt - Laid down 1911. Completed 1914
Queen Elizabeth Class - HMS Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Barham, Valiant, Malaya - Laid down 1912-1913. Completed 1915-1916.
Canada - HMS Canada - Laid down 1911. Completed 1915.
Royal Sovereign Class - HMS Royal Sovereign, Revenge, Royal Oak, Resolution, Ramillies - Laid down 1913-1914. Completed 1916-1917.

I acquired some drawings of a few dreadnoughts a while back and wanted to know the classes they belonged to. Came across the list above and thought others might be interested.
Reagards,
JT

Dixie212 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:15:44 am »

Surely only dreadnoughts belonged to the dreadnought class all other classes listed were different classes of battleship. Or have I missed something?

raflaunches · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2015, 01:25:43 pm »

All battleships built after Dreadnought were referred to as Dreadnought class even though they were split up into smaller sub classes which are listed above. I think after the KGV class of WW1 they were sometimes referred to as super dreadnoughts whilst you could say that the first battleship to break from the traditional dreadnought designation was the Nelson/Rodney.

dreadnought72 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2015, 05:13:02 pm »

Orion and co. were regarded as Super Dreadnoughts by the press when built - 13.5" guns and superfiring turrets making them just that bit more Super.

Andy

Bob K · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2015, 05:19:49 pm »

If anyone should know about Dreadnaughts it must be "dreadnaught72"

dreadnought72 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 30, 2015, 11:32:09 am »

The time it takes to build one is something I certainly know about!

For what it's worth, what I find interesting in the naming debate is the situation with the battlecruisers.

Initially referred to as large armoured ships, then cruiser-battleships and dreadnought cruisers, the emphasis was (correctly) on the concept of a large, fast, armoured cruiser able to out-run and defeat any other cruiser, and conduct long-range commerce raiding.

By 1908 Jacky Fisher, stirring up popular support via the press for the public, referred to them as battlecruisers - a title adopted officially by the Admiralty in 1911.

I think, at this point, their fate was sealed. While Invincible and Inflexible performed in the role they were designed for at the Falklands in 1914, that early success didn't highlight their drawbacks. As battlecruisers they were always going to be tied to the main battlefleet and, being hopelessly badly armoured, suffer the consequences.

...of course the whole naming convention rather breaks down by the time of the Fast Battleships (Warspite), the last Battlecruiser (Hood) and Fisher's totally nuts Large Light Cruisers (Courageous), the latter pretty much good for nothing, except perhaps "hulls for aircraft carriers".

Andy, whose anorak is thick today.

ballastanksian · « **Reply #6 on:** October 30, 2015, 01:05:41 pm »

So JT, Which one are you planning to build?

jtbyte · « **Reply #7 on:** October 30, 2015, 01:46:08 pm »

I recently sent away to the National Maritime Museum for the drawings list of several of the above vessels. I wanted to be sure of what drawings were actually available for various ships and then decide which, ship, or ships, I would research further for a model. I like these old battleships and have always wanted to tackle one of them. When the list of drawings for each of the vessels I requested arrived I was initially very pleased with what drawings were listed. However, when I learned how much these drawings were going to cost I needed to sit down with a Brandy and very strong black coffee. Apparently the museum has to adopt new methods of producing the drawings and this means first scanning them. Excellent ideal you may think, until you understand that if you are the first person to order a drawing that has not yet been scanned, and those I requested have not, then it is going to cost you £70.00 per plan. So, in answer to your question I am going to build a 100” P51 Mustang with my son and forget the ideal of a Dreadnought for a few years, if not forever. I hope that answers your question.

Thank God I have collected many builders drawings over the years and have plenty to choose from. God only knows what it would cost today to build the collection I have.

Regards, JT

dreadnought72 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 30, 2015, 02:32:01 pm »

Thing is, when you divide that enormous cost by the hours you'd need to put into it (planking my decks alone took 100 hours+) then the final cost of plans, when you factor in the materials, and once subsumed by the labour, is pretty minimal.

I think for a project like this, you really need to love and have an attachment to the subject. It is a marathon, and you need the psychological staying power to get to the end.

Andy

+ That's 100 hours on the task itself - not including loading the kettle, cleaning up, setting up, contemplating my navel, taking a sly five minute breather.

jtbyte · « **Reply #9 on:** October 30, 2015, 03:07:16 pm »

There are many things we can do Andy that require great devotion to the subjects we attempt. I always produce my own drawings from the builder’s drawings before I even start a project. It’s just my way of doing things but I like it that way and enjoy it. That requires many hours of accurate research and work also. And, like you I have spent many hours planking decks too, and even setting the standing and running rigging of 74 gunners for months on end after making the rope itself. Talk to guys who build planes and gliders, or steam engines and trains. They are all devoted to what they are doing and they love every minute of it. That does not excuse prices like this. Not that there is much we can do about it! By the way I like the photos. JT.

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #10 on:** October 30, 2015, 06:09:00 pm »

Some of the NMS drawings are pretty large so it may indeed cost a lot to reproduce them. If you are the only prospective customer then you may have to bear that cost. Not many people actually want plans so there isn't a thriving market to spread the cost.
Colin

dreadnought72 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2015, 08:13:47 pm »

Quote from: jtbyte on October 30, 2015, 03:07:16 pm

I always produce my own drawings from the builder’s drawings before I even start a project. It’s just my way of doing things but I like it that way and enjoy it.

Me too ... Not least to get a first "feel" of how big the blinkin' thing might be. But there's also a degree of learning about the subject, which - I'd argue - you can't get by slavishly following someone else's plans.

Andy

jtbyte · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2015, 08:40:49 pm »

Yes Collin, in some cases it may be that larger drawings may cost more. However, having purchased quite a few drawings from the NMM I have noticed that large and small drawings have each been charged for at the same price, and this has been the case from other archives. I think its just that the new system of scanning the drawing first has to be paid for and the first person to ask for a drawing not yet scanned is going to get hit. It’s a shame really because the system is long over due and does need to be done. But, at the same time the method of charging like this for the first scan is not going to be popular, and may in fact turn even more people off. There are after all other archives that also hold some very interesting vessel drawings, and even to get drawings from the US, as I have also done, is not that expensive overall. But, as I said early there isn’t much we can do anyway.

I absolutely agree with you Andy. It’s always best to do your own work from the very beginning. After all, when it’s all done and you sit back and look at it you know inside it’s all yours. And then of course the proverbial, what’s next? JT

jtbyte · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2015, 09:41:44 pm »

You probably already have these Andy, but I was just looking over a few of them and thought you might like to see them anyway. I dont know who drew them but they are kind of nice to look at. The first is Malaya and the second is Queen Elizabeth. I had to reduce them to get them in so they don't really come out so good. Anyway...

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #14 on:** October 31, 2015, 12:44:04 am »

I wonder if the fact that individuals take the hit simply reflects the general lack of demand for drawings so there is no incentive to develop a more equitable system of charging? The reality is that marine model making is very much a niche interest/hobby and scratch building these days is a small niche within a niche. One has to see these things in perspective. Perhaps we should be grateful that the material is available at all, when I first started scale modelling accurate information was very difficult if not impossible to obtain.
Colin

Bowwave · « **Reply #15 on:** October 31, 2015, 04:18:28 pm »

The sobering thought is there is no such thing as an accurate model only degrees of representation and in some respects that also applies to builders drawings. To be fair to the NMM or any other source retrieving a drawing that is not already been copied in whatever format some persons time has to be accounted for. The question is if there is no alternative and you really would like to build a particular model then a cost will incur.
Bowwave

warspite · « **Reply #16 on:** November 01, 2015, 05:13:51 pm »

Are the images from the anatomy of a ship book?

jtbyte · « **Reply #17 on:** November 01, 2015, 07:46:27 pm »

To be honest I don't remember where I got them, but they are not from the place you mention.

derekwarner · « **Reply #18 on:** November 01, 2015, 08:28:53 pm »

As Bowwave says......'a drawing that is not already been copied in whatever format some persons time has to be accounted for'

Such archival Drawing offices may hold 1000's of ships plans, however that if 1000 ships

, as each vessels listing may contain scores of individual sub plan sets...so your NMM may actually store hundreds of thousands of plans

These may also be size AO or larger and must be hung vertically down in an air controlled atmosphere

One request for an unscanned plan...must first be found, verified [usually by a second person] then post the the scanning and electronic archival which again must be verified by a second higher rating employee

Imagine if you ordered a paid for a drawing of the Victory hull lines and ended up with a copy of Noahs Ark water lines...you would not be happy

.....nor would you accept an excuse 'that some dingbat scanned the wrong drawing

...and after all....a boat is a boat....cannot you just change it a bit to suit?'

Such is the need for accurate documentation, and this must start at the source....and be paid for .......... Derek

ballastanksian · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2015, 09:13:15 pm »

Hi JT, I ordered a set of drawings for HMS Achilles (the drawings were of Natal and Cochrane to be specific) from the NMM, and as I understod it, they have a set of scanners and printers that don't do much more than 1:1 scale prints, so they cannot currently manipulate the drawings.

My set of lines, main and weather deck drawings plus admin and postage came to about £70-£80, so all in all about £25 per sheet. I saved some money up and asked for part of the cost as a Christmas present

If you have a lare enough workshop wall, you can work from them direct, but it is better and more managable to have them reduced to your chosen model scale.

jtbyte · « **Reply #20 on:** November 03, 2015, 10:14:49 am »

Hi Ballastanksian, It may be that they had already been scanned, but even so the price you mentioned does not match any price per sheet that I have paid in the past. They used to be £17.28 per sheet copied, and before that cheaper again. The last copies that I purchased were for Nile gunboats and that was a few of months back before the current changes apparently came in. These of course were the photocopies they used to supply.

All the drawings I have were all done 1:1. I was always under the impression that this was the normal manner of copying the drawings. I am sure there must have been exceptions, but it has never happened to me. Anyway, what you say is very interesting and makes me very curious.

ballastanksian · « **Reply #21 on:** November 03, 2015, 08:46:04 pm »

Yes, thats about what I paid. If they are charging £70 per sheet now then they will deter model builders from using their resources.

That would be sad

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #22 on:** November 03, 2015, 09:21:28 pm »

'If they are charging £70 per sheet now then they will deter model builders from using their resources.'

Probably true but will it bother them? They aren't really into models these days and I don't expect they derive much net income from supplying plans.

Colin

Geoff · « **Reply #23 on:** November 05, 2015, 01:35:42 pm »

Not good news if its going to be £70 a sheet. I paid about that for three sheets for Iron Duke (lines, weather deck and forecastle deck). If I had wanted all the plansit was in the region of £600! Howerver realistically you don't need anywhere near all the plans to build an accurate model.

Again I was told they dont scale them so they all come in at 1/48 so were near 16 feet long!

Sadly the maritime museum is not really into models any more and the wonderfull collection they used to have is in storage. I was told, but don't know if it is true, that when they did their major regeneration project some years ago it came with PC connotations so all had to be touchy feely envoronmental stuff. Hardley a mention of the British Empire as its not PC! The last time I was there was some time ago but from memory our entire maritime history was showcased in about 50 feet albeit thier was one very large model of a WW2 KGV class but nothing like the rooms full of models that they used to have. The British Empire is sadly being airbrushed out of history!

I believe the Science Museum in London has also closed their maritime section - apparently no demand - perhaps if they advertised a bit it would help but then doubtless that would be un PC as well!

All very sad

The only potential shining light is at Chatham, which has got a lot better, where there are a number of builders models on display but they are badly presented in a dark room with spotllights and no photography permitted

Geoff · « **Reply #24 on:** November 05, 2015, 01:45:21 pm »

On an entirely different note lets turn the discussion back to Dreadnoughts. I have always thought that the comparison between British and German batleships has been unfair as they compare like classes with like classes typically based on the lay down date. However in reality because we built faster later british dreadnoughts were available to match the older designed German battleships.

For example on the day at Jutland, our latest ships were Revenge class (Revenge and Royal Oak I believe). so 15" guns and 13" armour against 12" guns and 14" armour - Koineg class. This means you need to compare the Queen Elizabeths to the next German class down etc. If you compare numbers of ships, ship for ship a different picture emerges.

Okay so lets move post Jutland and you get two Baden class v 4 Revenge class. Koineg class v 4 Queen elizabeths and so on. All a very different picture!

Okay let the discussion begin!

Cheers

G

News:

Author Topic: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES (Read 17871 times)