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Author Topic: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES  (Read 17692 times)

dreadnought72

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2015, 05:18:17 pm »

^ fair point.

SMS Blucher the same date as HMS Invincible ... No contest there.

Andy
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Bowwave

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2015, 05:55:09 pm »

Most naval historians agree that the RN lost the tactical advantage at Jutland and the battle but retained the strategic advantage which was far more important than a single engagement. The quality of shells used by the RN at Jutland was poor given the volume fired hits gained and damage inflicted. Worse still the  Kaiserliche Marine  learned the lessons from  the battle of Dogger Bank the RN on the other hand did not and suffered accordingly. Post war inspection  of the Baden class indicated that they no better than equivalent British battleships .yet   German  naval architects    had a  clear  understanding of  the advantages  of subdivision  and  effective  damage control by flooding  but more importantly cordite was handled in canisters not bags as on RN capitol ships . Opening salvos from German battle cruisers and battleships was regarded as being more effective because of better optics and fire control  .
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Geoff

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2015, 10:53:10 pm »

I would disagree as Jutland was about control of the north sea which we retained and therefore we won strategically.Whilst we lost more ships than the Germans this was principally due to criminal negligence of the officers and men within the battlecrusier fleet. After the Falklands and Dogger Bank the German survivors all commented that they felt the rate of fire from the English was slow. Within the battlecrusiers there was encouragement to increase the rate of fire and this was done by keeping magazine doors and anti flash doors open and stockpiling ammunition such that from the turret to the magazine became an extended magazine. A penetration of a turret then lit the fuse with the obvious effect. the Germans learned this lesson at Dogger Bank with Seydlitz and immediately reduced the amount of ammunition in turrets.


One of the myths of German warships was that their charges were in metal cases.This is true only to a degree as only the last part of the charge with the all important black powder igniter was contained in metal. The rest of the charge was in silk the same as the English.


With the English charges there was a black powder igniter at the rear of each quarter charge and it became standard practice to remove all four covers before loading such that is was seen as a "crime" for a charge to reach the turret with the cover still on. This also scattered a trail of black powder on the floor.


Both Beatty and Jellico were aware of the practice but turned a blind eye in the pursuit of higher rates of fire. the results were the loss of three battlecrusiers at Jutland. interestingly the gunnery officer of Lion refused to adhere to this which is probably why Lion survived the hit on \q turret.


There was a report done after Jutland which confirmed all this but it was "hidden" and the blame put on lack of deck amour!


 
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Colin Bishop

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2015, 11:05:32 pm »

The beam of British battleships was constrained by the size of the dry docks available to them. The German docks were newer and wider and their ships could be wider too and this meant that the internal torpedo bulkhead could be mounted further inboard and allowed for greater subdivision. The extensive subdivision in the German ships made for poor living conditions but their crews spent much of their time in barracks ashore when the fleet was in port. British ships had to be capable of world wide service and consequently needed better conditions for their crews. However the vaunted German subdivision did have weaknesses in that the bulkheads were pierced for pipe and cable runs which resulted in many small leaks from battle damage and consequent slow waterlogging and flooding.

Interestingly, Bismarck was based on the design of Baden as that was all the Germans had to work with post war. Bismarck was a great looking ship and very large but she was a less sophisticated design than Rodney which blew her to pieces without much help from KGV. Had the G3s been built they would probably have been more than a match for Bismarck despite being older.

Another design fault carried over from the High Seas Fleet to Bismarck was the practice of running cabling and communications above the armoured deck where they were very vulnerable to damage. Another quirk of German post wars designs was that the sterns of their ships tended to fall off when stressed due to a structural discontinuity where the belt armour ended.

There's lots of interesting information available when you start comparing all these designs in detail.

Of course none of these ships had to worry about emissions in those days.... :}

Colin
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dreadnought72

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2015, 12:43:19 am »

Jutland? Lots of reasons why it was not a total victory for the RN, but the first and most important reason to my mind was Beatty's utter mismanagement of the Fifth Battle Squadron. His most powerful and effective asset in the wrong place at the start of the action, and almost thrown to the lions later on after the BCs start their run to the North.

Forget battlecruisers' inherent weaknesses - I think these were only emphasised (excepting Invincible's loss) due to the lack of practical support when it was particularly needed from the Fast Battleships.

Beatty should have been court-martialled for this.

... Second thoughts, preferably after his incompetence at the Dogger Bank.

Andy
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Bowwave

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2015, 10:10:03 am »

.

Interestingly, Bismarck was based on the design of Baden as that was all the Germans had to work with post war. Bismarck was a great looking ship and very large but she was a less sophisticated design than Rodney which blew her to pieces without much help from KGV. Had the G3s been built they would probably have been more than a match for Bismarck despite being older.


Colin
Hardly a fair comparison  as Bismarck had  a damaged rudder and could not steer effectively  to fight a battle against a rowing boat let alone two battleships . The G3 design would have been no more effective than the Rodney .
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Colin Bishop

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2015, 10:36:08 am »

I think the G3 would have been faster than the Bismarck and a bit better armoured than Rodney! True the Bismarck was unable to steer but her systems were otherwise pretty much intact but from what I have read her fire control was quickly put out of action due to the communications being routed above the armour deck. Rodney had the disadvantage that she had no high explosive shells aboard as they had all been landed prior to her impending refit in the States so basically she could only drill holes in the Bismarck with armour piercing which made it difficult to sink her. Personally I think Bismarck was overrated and a semi obsolescent design with a relatively weak armour belt (it wasn't special steel) and no dual purpose secondary armament.

Colin
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Bowwave

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2015, 12:21:35 pm »

I think the G3 would have been faster than the Bismarck and a bit better armoured than Rodney!

Quoting the superiority of the G3 design over that of the Rodney with the Implication that Bismarck would have been no match in a gun duel with the G3 is like saying the Schlachtschiff H would have been superior to the G3. Neither battleship was built and as such conjecture. Yet the fact is when pitted against an older modernised battle cruiser and a modern battleship Bismarck came out on top   but not unscathed.  You are correct regarding the secondary fit aboard  Bismarck as not being dual purpose .To provide  AA defence all German Capitol  ships of the period   had the tri-axial  10.5cm  in  combination with  the   3.7cm   but when  put to the test   Bismarck’s  flak defence was found  wanting .
Bowwave
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Colin Bishop

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2015, 12:57:03 pm »

As with all these things you can't take them at face value. Hood was never really modernised and her deck protection preceded the aviation era and was known to be quite inadequate which was why she was attempting to close the range sufficiently to take any hits on her belt armour which was on a par with the Queen Elizabeth and Revenge classes taking into account its inclination and probably just as good as that on Bismark at low trajectories. Unfortunately the original design assumed relatively low battle ranges and protection against plunging fire was not thought to be necessary in the pre Jutland era. It was too late to change things while the Hood was on the stocks which was why only one of the four ships was built. Hood was really just a fast version of the QE class with some improvements. She was vulnerable to plunging fire and paid the price.

Prince of Wales was unfit for battle at the time of the action with Bismarck, she was not fully worked up and much of her main armament was out of action for substantial periods due to technical faults for most of the battle. (KGV was still having breakdowns when she engaged the Bismark as well).

Admiral Holland might have been better advised to have led with Prince of Wales which was better able to stand up to Bismarck's fire at longer ranges and of course Hood initially opening up on Prinz Eugen instead of Bismarck didn't help matters.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

Colin
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rsm

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2015, 01:34:13 pm »

Bismarck's armour belt was apparently made of Krupp cementite face hardened armour steel, which was developed post-WW1. Proving ground tests indicated it was only slightly less resistant than British cemented armour and the expeditions to the wreck have found no penetration holes in her armoured belt or armoured deck from British shells. So despite other deficiencies her armour was actually good.
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Bowwave

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2015, 01:35:59 pm »

For  naval engagements you deploy assets that  are considered more than adequate for the job , in fact Hood received a considerable amount of armour between the wars  and both Hood a Battle cruiser  and the Prince of Wales where considered more than adequate to deal with Bismarck , because they performed badly  does not say that Bismarck was inferior Hood was fitted with Radar for ranging . This was not  a re-run of Coronel  but an equal gun duel  and Bismarck proved to be the better ship on the day and that is all it takes.
Bowwave
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Geoff

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2015, 01:49:31 pm »

Bismark was a sound but somewhat outdated design. Her important features were her beam and high speed which made her a problem for the RN to catch. One needs to reflect that all the treaties limited battleship construction to 35,000 tons (how that is measured is a very different topic!) but Bismark came in nearer 50,000 tons and a naval architect can do a lot with the additional displacement.
 
There has been criticism about her 6" secondary armamant as it was not dual purpose. It was not intended to be dual purpose. The Krigsmarine recognised that their battleships would in all probability be operating as solo units and going after commerce rather than a stand up pitched battle. The six inch guns were therfore a requirement to engage enemy crusiers whilst the main guns went for any battleship whilst attacking convoys. The Kriegsmarine recognised they did not have enough crusiers so they would probably have to fight both at the same time. Anything less than a six in gun did not have the stopping power needed.
 
In contrast the allies knew they had enough crusiers so their battleships would only have to fight other battleships so they devoted the weight into dual purpose secondary armamant. Powerfull enogh to deter destroyer attacks but light enough to be used in an ant-aircraft capacity
 
There was an earlier comment that Rodney only had armour piercing shells in the engagement with Bismark and this was a disadvantage. I disagree entirely and find this surprising but it didn't matter as battleships need armour piercing shells to sink each other. An armour piercing shell is not solid shot, it penetrates armour and then detonates between 30 and 40 feet further in, deep in the vitals, that is its purpose. High explosive shells do superficial damage but are unable to deliver the necessary destructive and cumulative damage needed to sink a battleship.
 
Bismarks armour protection was indeed based on the WW1 Baden class and it performed very well at shorter ranges which were typically found in the North Sea. Rodney had the power and protection to go one on one with Bismark but not the speed or probaby the fire control gear so why would Bismark engage?  POW had the speed and the protection, which was much superior to Bismarks (POW belt was 14" and 15" thick v Bismarks 12". POW deck was 5" to 6" thick v about 4" in Bismark. In fact the KGV class were amoungst the most heavily protected battleships ever built. Their downfall was the atrocious 14" gun which was just powerfull enough (1,400 pound shell) but the mountings were dreadfully complicated so none of the class ever obtained their full fire power potential.
 
Interestingly DOY engaged and sank Scharnhorst with her 14" guns pounding her and perhaps more interesting is that in many ways Scharnhorst was better protected than Bismark. A detailed comparison is interesting!!
 
With the Hood POW engagement, in my opinuion POW should have stood off and engaged at extreeme range where Bismark was very vulnerable and let Hood get close in. Too may ifs and buts really as what happened is well known.
 
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Geoff

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2015, 01:57:55 pm »

Actually just to add a klittle more to this - during the Rodney/KGV/Bismark duel one of the reasons Bismark was so hard to sink was that her damage was invlicted from all directions leading to slow flooding wheras a list rapidly destroys a ships ability to fight. Also in time honoured fashion Rodney/KGV closed the range to get more hits. At relativly short range heavy shells come in pretty flat so they do not penetrate the vitals, just rearrange the wreckage. Long rang plunging shots are needed to destroy a battleship.
 
One final interesting statistic - it typically takes takes about about 12/18 heavy calibre hits to put a battleship out of action (unless amagazine is hit) and this has been fairly constand eve sice iron went to sea!
 
The problem is to get the hits as 95% tend to miss!
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Colin Bishop

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2015, 02:21:57 pm »

You can discuss this sort of thing forever which is what makes it interesting! Re armour piercing shells, yes I know they were not solid but the bursting charge was very small, perhaps 5% of the shell weight and intended to break up the shell to let the fragments do kinetic damage to the ship's structure. Quite correct that after a while you are just rearranging the wreckage. Tovey would have liked a proportion of high explosive as he thought that this would add to the incendiary effect and give a greater likelihood of touching off a magazine.

I am currently reading the Battle of Jutland by the American Holloway Frost (only 99p on Kindle http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B014RIJ0QK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o04_)

This gives an interesting American viewpoint on the battle which challenges generally held 'truths' although perhaps not always correctly. For example he considers that Evan Thomas' performance in handling the 5th Battle Squadron was quite masterly and heroic, not a commonly held view I would suggest!  After WW1 the US Navy was not particularly well disposed towards the RN and even regarded it as a possible wartime threat. This attitude does show up a little in the analysis of the battle but at the moment I have only got to the point where Beatty is leading Hipper's battlecruisers towards the Grand Fleet. There is a bit of the 'we wouldn't have done that in the US navy' about it but when an American battle squadron was sent to join the Grand Fleet it was found that their gunnery was very bad.

Colin
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Geoff

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2015, 02:36:57 pm »

Yes, but the point is you can't get to a magazine with a high explosive shell, only an armour piercing round can get through the armour to set of the chain of events.
 
I had also read that when the American squadron joind the Grand Fleet in 1918 they were shocked at how good the gunnery was and how good the command and control of the squadrons were.
 
With the new sheels (greenboys) there was no doubt that by 1918 the Grand Fleet was the most effective battlefleet in the world by a big margin. We were overconfident in the early years of ww1 but by the end we had learned lots of lessons, had better equipment and more realistic training and methods and were supreme!!
 
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Colin Bishop

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2015, 03:33:16 pm »

Just about all ships had their strengths and weaknesses in battle. As said above, Bismarck was a competent design but not the 'super ship' that many would like to think. Rodney was a clever design but restricted in speed due to tonnage limitation and the need to carry heavy armour and armament although her internal armour belt was actually quite shallow and would have been deepened if war had not intervened. The problems with the KGV armament were largely due to key skills being lost after WW1 due to the rundown of the heavy engineering industries (just as in the same way we can no longer build cruise ships in the UK as the skills are no longer there. I would think a KGV fitted with 15 inch guns might have been a better bargain - just like Vanguard!

I quite agree that if you are pounding away at your opponent at close range then compartments below the waterline will be relatively unscathed - that was true of Nelson's time as well. However high explosive can do a lot of damage even to well armoured ships as the South Dakota discovered when she was smothered by Japanese cruiser fire in WW2. The vitals of the ship were largely unaffected but much of the command and control functions were put out of action so that the ship became virtually blind and lost her effective fighting capability.

Colin
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Bowwave

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2015, 04:48:40 pm »

Reading   just some of the huge number of books on Jutland   the conclusion was more that the German did not gain a Victory in the classic sense more as mentioned in an earlier post the battle was lost by the British in effect a scenario not that different from the battle of the Demark strait.   On both accounts the British had superior fire power at their disposal   but   the ships   were not up to the mark.  The complete reversal of this was the battle of   Tsushima where one fleet decimated the other. The Japanese had the superior numbers, fire power and deployed their ships more effectively than the Russians.  Again the battle of the Falklands proved that with superior fire power, better ships   and good judgement    battles are won decisively.   There are reams of data available on all of these battles but   along with the judgements commander make there is an element of luck.   It was pure luck that Bismarck took a hit   which coursed a fuel problem which in turn necessitated a rethink as to the   destination of the ship. This gave the FAA the chance which was taken and the result   changed the fortunes of war.    Equally if Jellico  had kept his nerve and faced the death ride  instead of turning way  , he may well have lost ships but there was a good chance he would have turned the tide of battle decisively . 
Bowwave
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Geoff

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2015, 05:09:11 pm »

Fair comment but Jellico didn't need to take a chance as the anticipation was the battle would resume the next day as he was between the Germans and their base, as it happens this was not to be. As Churchill said "Jellico was the only man on either side who could loose the war in an afternoon".
 
The war cabinet were fully in agreement with Jellico's battle orders, i.e turning away from a suspected mass torpedo attack. If you turn away the torpedo's gain more slowly so there it time to evade.
 
Too many ships were lost in the Russian Japanese war to mine on both sides that it was a serious concern. there is an excellent book on Jellico's tactics which illustrate the problems of trying to contain an enemy who is attempting to flee.
 
The fundamental problem was how do you catch an enemy who doesn't want to fight who can generally steam at the same speed you can!
 
At the Falklands and Dogger Bank our ships were faster and the enemy suffered.
 
I think generally the German battleships were probably better than our own but we had more and that was the point - only numbers can annihilate. Whilst our shells were not as good (and there is still a lot of dispute over this) they were certainly less effective at long range oblique angles but as the range closed they became just as effective where the greater weight of firepower may well have proved decisive. Our ships were not badly armoured. As I'm in the process of building a large model of Iron Duke I was suprised how extensive the armour was once fitted. Yes the Germans had heavier belt armour but they had to face heavier shells and the convers is true so the relative diffience in protection was probably not signficant albeit the German underwater protection was beter until QE and Revenge classes appeard then we were on parity. Again a point in question at the end of the war the Germans had two15" gun ships we had eight!
 
The Germans never intended to have a one on one with the Grand Fleet and the staggering shock for them was that we could deploy the whole fleet and catch them, the flaw was with the tacticts of the day we could not capitalise on the trap. Bear in mind Jellico crossed their "T" twice - not too bad at all!
 
The problems in control of a battlefleet that size were never really solved, too mucgh smoke and confusion to force a decision. The British generally though of a Trafalgar but in general most fleet actions usually ended in something of a stalemate unless the circumstances were exceptional, Trafalgar and Tuishima being the exception.
 
We also need to consider that the ships at Tuishima were already obsolete
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Bowwave

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2015, 06:05:03 pm »


The Germans never intended to have a one on one with the Grand Fleet and the staggering shock for them was that we could deploy the whole fleet and catch them, the flaw was with the tacticts of the day we could not capitalise on the trap. Bear in mind Jellico crossed their "T" twice - not too bad at all!
 
The problems in control of a battlefleet that size were never really solved, too mucgh smoke and confusion to force a decision. The British generally though of a Trafalgar but in general most fleet actions usually ended in something of a stalemate unless the circumstances were exceptional, Trafalgar and Tuishima being the exception.
 
We also need to consider that the ships at Tuishima were already obsolete
Jellicoe did indeed cross Scheer’s T twice but he failed to capitalize on the manoeuvre to be quite frank he was out smarted by Scheer not once but twice and paid the penalty   by for fitting the chance of a decisive outcome .. An interesting book and well worth a read is Germany’s High Sea Fleet in the World War by Admiral Scheer. Both Beatty and  Jellicoe went into battle with a clear advantage in numbers , fire power  and speed   yet these margins where not decisive enough  The night action following Jutland was more  brawl than a fight .

It depends what you consider a fleet action  Manila Bay May 1898 was a fleet action and it was decisive , Coronel was decisive ,   The Falklands  . These did not have the number of warships of Tsushima or Jutland   but they were considered fleet actions .
Bowwave
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Colin Bishop

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2015, 07:20:34 pm »

Not sure how you reckon that Scheer outsmarted Jellicoe Dave! Both sides made mistakes but Scheer steamed right into the Grand Fleet not once but twice, had to make emergency turnaways and was very lucky to get home at all. His battlecruisers were all pretty much wrecked by the time they reached port and their best unit, Lutzow, had to be sunk. Several of Scheer's battleships were also very badly knocked about. The surviving British battlecruisers (with the exception of New Zealand which was unscathed) actually stood up to the German fire very well and were ready for sea long before their German counterparts. If the British had fixed their vulnerable ammunition supply arrangements before Jutland they probably would not have lost all of the three battlecruisers they did.

The day after the battle the British were in possession of the battlefield and the Germans were back in port.

Jellicoe never sought a night action because his ships were not trained for night fighting. He was expecting to re engage the next morning but his subordinates let him down by not reporting information that would have given him a better picture of where the Germans were. Scheer was desperately trying to get home and the disorganised flotillas at the rear of the British fleet allowed him through with just the loss of an old pre Dreadnought when he blundered through them.

But as Geoff says, ultimately it was Jellicoe's job to play safe, he was already in a position of strength. The High Seas Fleet was nicknamed the 'Luxury Fleet' because it was not essential to Germany's military capacity which was dependent on her army. The British Fleet on the other hand was vital to the survival of the Country and Jellicoe's tactics and actions were based upon that. Not exciting perhaps but it worked. Torpedoes, mines and submarines were relatively new weapons with unpredictable effects on the course of a surface action and Jellicoe saw no point in taking risks that he didn't need to. If he had sunk a good part of the HSF it wouldn't have made any real difference to the overall war situation but if the HSF had put a major proportion of the Grand Fleet out of action then things would have been very different indeed!

Colin
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Bowwave

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2015, 09:14:45 pm »

What you say is partially true    but many naval historians   now view the battle of Jutland as a tactical win for the HSF   .  The basic fact is  the  British  entered the battle with  a fleet of 265ships   whilst the  HSF  numbered 99 ships  This was an overwhelming force   with Jellicoe having  had intercepts  relayed from room 40 as to the position of the HSF . Beatty had at his disposal the QEs with their 15inch guns with the outcome as the British people had come to expect a forgone conclusion. Yet at the end of the day   the Grand Fleet suffered   50% more casualties and lost more ships.  But the strategic situation remained unchanged.   
You are right   that   it was not Scheer’s intention to confront the entire Grand Fleet it was his strategy   to whittle away at the edges until parity was achieved.    I think this    piece of naval history   unlike any other can be mulled over for further 100 years as   there is no defined point where either side can claim to use the word   decisive.  There is little doubt that the mauling inflicted on the HSF did change the emphasis of the war at Sea in WW1 towards the submarine which came uncomfortably close to   achieving what    the HSF could not  do change the strategic situation .
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dreadnought72

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2015, 09:34:30 pm »

Jellicoe did indeed cross Scheer’s T twice but he failed to capitalize on the manoeuvre to be quite frank he was out smarted by Scheer not once but twice and paid the penalty   by for fitting the chance of a decisive outcome ..

Utter flippin' nonsense.

1. Jellicoe deployed the Grand Fleet in precisely the right way to maximise its firepower. Crossed the tee, par excellence.

2. Jellicoe made the right decision to turn away from the subsequent torpedo attack to avoid unnecessary losses to the GF. Why should he risk it?

3. Scheer, in an amazing act of utter ineptitude, turned back into Jellicoe's tee, and was only saved by bad light.

If there's a 'what if?' at this stage, it's why did destroyer/cruiser  squadrons not accurately report their night actions, and give Jellicoe a proper situational awareness at dawn?

End of !  ;)
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dodes

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2015, 10:29:46 pm »

As said earlier people will argue this battle for generations to come, but as said Jellicoe was the only man who could have lost the war that day. Plus radio was in its infancy and plotting and giving accurate positions then was very poor, as navigation then out of sight of land was all dead reckoning ( intelligent guess work ). As to the British Battlecruisers it has since come out that they had permission given to increase their ammo loading 50% above designed amount which gave all the problems which lead directly to their destruction. Also prior to the war Jellico was given the task of investigating British Ammunition and Gunnery, so he probably knew its limitations.
As to Hood when the RN tried to get the money between the wars to improve her deck armour, the Treasury said no on the grounds that shells come through the sides not the deck!! But she was greatly outranged by both the Bismarck and her consort, as mentioned earlier she should have had the Prince of Wales leading, and in a computer assimilation game I had once it was the only way to take out the Bismarck, but I have heard unconfirmed reports that Hood went off at full speed leaving the Prince of Wales behind, so that both German ships could concentrate on Hood for some time. As for Bismarck she was sent to the bottom in approx. 45 minutes from start of action by the Rodney.
But like all things we can argue for ever, the real facts are human beings died in their thousands for their country in very nasty conditions, that is what we should really understand and remember.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2015, 10:31:27 pm »

Yes, the 'Jutland Controversy' started immediately after the battle and has pretty much continued unabated to this day. I find it fascinating myself. It is also very interesting to read the biographies of the main characters which helps to understand their actions at the time.

Beatty agitated for a long time to have the 5th Battle Squadron under his command to bolster his battlecruisers but when he finally got his wish he didn't even bother to invite Evan-Thomas aboard Lion to discuss how they would work together before the battle. Beatty had a reputation for being impetuous and flamboyant which was why Jellicoe was reluctant to entrust him with such an important unit of the Grand Fleet. Horace Hood who commanded the 3rd Battlecruiser Squadron was probably a better all round and more intelligent leader. Evan-Thomas was a competent but conventional admiral, imbued with the formalised practices of the Grand Fleet which meant that he was more inclined to wait for orders rather than anticipate them whilst Beatty, despite his other shortcomings, did expect his subordinates to use their initiative and was sometimes disappointed both at Jutland and at the Dogger Bank.

In some respects the QEs were a disappointment as they could not actually make their designed 25 knots which lessened their value as a fast wing of the Grand Fleet.

Beatty is an interesting character as, behind all the glamour and posing, he had a wretched private life being 'kept' by his rich American wife who bestowed her favours elsewhere which prompted Beatty to find his own female solace.

It was said that to make Beatty's eyes light up you only had to shine a torch in his ear but he proved to be a competent successor to Jellicoe and played a major role in the post war naval treaty negotiations. He could also behave very badly as in seeking to have the official records of Jutland changed in his favour and he drove his former flag lieutenant Ralph Seymour to suicide. yet he was also a pallbearer at the funeral of Earl Jellicoe although in poor health and died shortly afterwards himself.

I find the whole WW1 period and the times leading up to it to be quite fascinating myself.

Colin
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Colin Bishop

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Re: DREADNOUGHT CLASSES
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2015, 12:06:56 am »

This topic seems to have gone a bit quiet but it offers some fascinating insights on naval warfare in WW1 and how it subsequently influenced subsequent naval development and policy in the post ware era which had an eventual impact on WW2.

Colin
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