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Author Topic: What type of glue?  (Read 10978 times)

Ron Rees

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2016, 04:17:59 pm »

Brian....re your problems with Cyano glues,


I now use a brilliant medium viscosity from Hobby King called Super Gold Plus. It comes in decent sized bottles is Odourless, doesn't fume and sticks like 'You know what to a blanket'....and I have no problems using it on Foam and everything else.


I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't use Cyano any more!.


Regards...........Ron.
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StarLocAdhesives/FiveStar

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2016, 04:21:08 pm »

Although all these types of products can occasionally be dangerous in use it should not ever happen with normal safe use after reading the label.


Or.....they would have been banned for retail sale!, the latest chemical regulations make it harder than ever to sell dangerous products.


One of the worst adhesives health wise is actually the polyurethane glues, legislation was being passed to ban them completely.....due to the amount of people who have died using the reactive polyurethane based  materials, then it was changed to make it necessary to sell with a chemical gas mask and pair of gloves with each bottle...then the manufacturers association  complained so much before it was in force..... so it is only now a pair of gloves with each bottle.


They did not do this with any other chemical found in modelling or household use
Another strange regulation was only small cans of solvent based contact glue could be sold due to people using too much in small areas such as carpeting a car.


All are safe to use if used correctly according to the label.
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Ron Rees

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2016, 04:40:36 pm »

Sorry to go on about glues...and this one is in answer to Martins query,


Impact adhesives like Evostik and similar is still very good for bonding large flat areas, if they are fairly level, as in kitchen worktops, cabinets etc and can harden further over time to be impossible to remove or debond those surfaces. They do have a limited use in our models for laminating and attaching rubber fenders and so on, but will remove paint finishes instantly down to the primer!, but they are getting expensive, are still smelly and are gradually disappearing from the shop shelves because of the rules governing their sales and storage etc. They are, of coarse extremely flammable as well as doing some peoples brains in (Sniffers)


They are slowly being replaced with spreadable acrylic based contact adhesives in industry as these are safer to use. In our modelling spectrum an example of a runnier adhesive like this would be De-Luxe materials Super Phatic resin glue, which is very runny and doesn't appear to be any good at all but WoW does it stick!!!!when used right.


Evostik and the like are not recommended for thin plastics as the solvent can melt it, but the Aliphatic Resin will work beautifully and I sheeted over all the foam innards on my Police boat hull with Plasticard 0.05, beautiful.


As far as the No Nails etc go they are excellent for holding up curtain rail supports or architraves on the wall with just a thin panel pin till its dry and some of the later ones are indeed acrylic as well. They can't be spread over large surfaces and are designed to be used with the blob here and there method, it would also make your wrists hurt to much to work the applicator and cost a small fortune for large areas.


Every modern glue is designed for a specific job and while we try and use them for other things they do what they are designed to do when used correctly.


(PS.  I Spent 3 years working and developing adhesives for the DIY business....so not everything I say can be taken as true...!!)


Hope this helps,............Ron.
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Ron Rees

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2016, 04:53:36 pm »

Well said Starloc,


I wasn't going to go into all that but you are right. Most people, modellers included, do not read the warnings on the label, which are there for their health and safety.


There is also the problem of modellers, who only really need small amounts of any adhesive, trying to cost cut and buying industrial quantities of some very dangerous substances, which they are not equipped to store or decant safely and really know very little about.


Your spray adhesive example for car mats is a classic example and I wonder how many people spray paints and adhesives in their tiny model rooms.


I will say that sellers of Polyurethane adhesives put them pathetic flat polythene gloves in their packaging but they are so awkward to use that the users rarely do, the manufacturers are OK because they have supplied the required safety gloves but they are so awful nobody uses them.
These glues are terrible if you get them on your skin and every modeller should have a box of surgical gloves in their workshop as well as plenty of ventillation.


Nuff Said..............Ron Rees
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StarLocAdhesives/FiveStar

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2016, 05:10:18 pm »

I do think many glues are better than old style `evostick` type contacts, but using them is more difficult to judge the correct time to join if using as a contact cement and evaporation is slower on non porous surfaces, low temperatures cause problems with film form as well.



Most waterbased adhesives used to ( and still a lot do ) contain low levels of solvents to increase film forming at low temp. these are generally higher toxicity than the older style well known solvents things like methoxypropanol are widly used and are dangerous,


Non bond as well easily to a wide range of plastics as the previous technologies due to lack of solvent action on substrates like ABS


The big problem is laminating with an adhesive such as the runny aliphatics, they only need to loose small levels of water to `set` so people join at this point and on non porous surfaces this causes bond failure, wet or (semi wet) lamination with waterbased products is not reccomended on non porous surfaces. 

I work formulating adhesives  ( for our own companies and as a consultant ) every day and have done for the last 20+ years I keep quite upto date on the technology available,  there are still no really good formulas exist to totally replace the older style adhesives 100%....they are better now than in the past but not good enough yet.

I did my PhD on eco adhesives,  novel natural plant extract based additives and monomers for structural reactive adhesives and we still dont manufacture anything using them yet...
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tizdaz

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2016, 05:47:50 pm »

For wood to fibreglass, ive been looking for a good glue forthis job myself, the one im going to use after scouring the net is P40 Filler as it has FG strands in it and makes a solid bond :-)
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Nemo

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2016, 08:30:11 pm »

P40 Filler is just that - a filler. I suggest you do not use it as an adhesive as the bond would not be very strong with wood to fibreglass. Why not use a 2-part epoxy ?
Bob.
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2016, 09:18:25 pm »

For wood to fibreglass, ive been looking for a good glue forthis job myself, the one im going to use after scouring the net is P40 Filler as it has FG strands in it and makes a solid bond :-)


I have used P40, didn't get on with the long strands left once it hardened. I have been using Plastic Padding Glass Fibre Repair Paste for the last few years. It has much shorter strands of fibreglass mixed into it, making it easier to use as either a spreadable adhesive or as re-enforcing fillets, run around the edge of joints. It has its limitations, but has proved superb for any heavy bonding of materials to fibreglass, timber stringers, plywood motor mounts, propshafts and any fibreglass to fibreglass joints. It can also be used as a filler...which I rarely use it for, as it takes some serious rubbing down. Tough when it has gone hard though.
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Stavros

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2016, 10:03:35 pm »

P40 Filler is just that - a filler. I suggest you do not use it as an adhesive as the bond would not be very strong with wood to fibreglass. Why not use a 2-part epoxy ?
Bob.


Sorry to correct you on this one Nemo But he is ok using P40 as it is  GRP filler with glass strands in it's make up...Yes I totally agree with NOT using ordinary car filler to hold things down...I shudder to think what will happen to a few models on here where they have fixed propshaft with it as it doesnt have any structial integrity


Dave



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Nemo

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2016, 11:03:32 pm »

Hi Dave, tizdaz is not clear on the purpose of his use of P40 Filler but he mentions 'looking for a good glue' to join wood and fibreglass, therefore he would be treating it as an adhesive, which it is to a point, but is intended for use as a filler, not an adhesive. Isopon state on their instructions 'David's ISOPON P40 polyester glass fibre filler is a two component chemical paste used for the bridging of holes and rust in surfaces such as steel and GRP.'   Whilst I bow to your success with P40 for certain light uses, in general, it should used mainly as a filler as stated by it's manufacturer. I would not trust it myself as an adhesive on any stressed join and certainly not on a prop-shaft.
Bob.
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Stavros

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2016, 11:47:58 pm »

I BEG to totally dissagree with you for the simple reason it is used to bond wood to grp on loads of boats and I simply do not mean models......As the product is a grp filler does it not cross your mind that as it is applied to a GRP hull....there lies the CLUE hull that is will stick like the proverbial blanket to it........As long as you abrade the wood let alone a shaft it will stick to it far far better then a 2 pack epoxy.




Have you ever tried to remove a deck on a GRP hull that has been set in a bed of P40...even though the bearers are wood....I bet you havnt as I KNOW what the outcome would be.......total disaster...MMM how do I know,,,,been there had the tee shirt.................If the deck was epoxied on it is possible to remove it with a struggle but no damage would be inflicted to the hull and the only thing you would have to do is to dremel the epoxy as it would be left behind.




Dave


 
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2016, 01:03:51 am »

I believe the two products we are discussing are fundamentally the same apart from longer 'stabby' spikes with the P40. Believe me the fibreglass repair paste has been used for the TOUGHEST jobs in my builds, and stands up extremely well, as long as you prepare the surfaces correctly.
For timber to fibreglass bonding it is my number one choice, followed second by epoxy resins. However, I prefer to beef up my epoxy resin joints with either Micro Fibres by Fibretech or Resin Thickener from MD.
I have used both Fibreglass Repair Paste and the epoxy option on at least two builds elsewhere on the forum, and they aint shown no signs of falling apart yet.
My philosophy, try something, if it works (pardon the pun) stick with it...it works, I have stuck with it!
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Nemo

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2016, 05:22:21 pm »

If the filler P40 is as versatile you say it is, and I don't at all dispute what you have said, I can only wonder why Isopon do not mention such amazing uses on its product description, rather than just a bog-standard filler. If it works for you, great, modellers and DIY-ers have been finding alternative uses for all sorts of products forever. Let us wait and see any comments from the enquirer- it's his choice after all.
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Subculture

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2016, 05:32:22 pm »

P40 is polyester resin mixed with chopped glass. They put a bit of pink dye in it to make it look pretty.

For bonding wood and metal it should be very strong indeed, but it can be a bit messy if the job requires any finesse.
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Mark T

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Re: What type of glue?
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2016, 05:49:54 pm »

I've used P40 for bonding wood to fibreglass and it works a treat.  If you lay it down as a fillet joint just dip your finger into some cellulose thinners and then draw your finger across the joint.  It makes it so smooth and leaves a nice finish and saves loads of rubbing down  :-))
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