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Author Topic: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!  (Read 15277 times)

BFSMP

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3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« on: August 26, 2016, 12:22:06 am »

I cannot answer this question myself, as I have never built a model boat, other than airfix and revell plastic warships in my younger days, but I have made a few dolls houses over the years. And all from parts I have bought to adorn the scratch built carcasses.

However, I see an ever developing trend of people on different forums "scratch building" their model ships, but resorting to buying the services of people with 3D printers to produce exquisite fittings by robotic machines for their models, or going to the expense of buying a 3D printer themselves to produce their own fittings.

Now is this scratch building as some people state, and [as I feel, not] what category would it fall into in a club or show competition.

And does one get anywhere near the same enjoyment in letting a machine do the work for them, rather than their own fingers and dexterity.

Jim.
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derekwarner

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2016, 12:35:09 am »

Hullo Jim......without getting too far into the discussion subject, I see many of our 5" Gauge steam engine builders [having machined most components from bar stock & plate] ....one chap I know...[a retired coal miner] enrolled at a Technical College and mastered the art of vacuum casting miniature cast steel sections for his engine build prototypical of the original. Would this be considered scratch building?

Anyway these people now have the ability to adorn their machines with CNC produced wheel or bearing box covers [approx. 12mm square], however now emblazoned with the manufacturers logos......all in such detail...that prior to CNC/CNC printing was not possible...........

Such is the price or progress of technology O0.......there is no going backwards.....Derek
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BFSMP

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2016, 12:41:53 am »

there is no going backwards.....Derek

I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head, Derek.

Jim.
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canabus

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2016, 01:35:29 am »

Hi All

To me scratch building is a plan, timber, plywood, glue, few tools and yourself.
Also the help of forums and club members!!!
The workshop does not have to have all the gear money can buy.
I am not into show boats, I build boats to use.

Canabus
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grendel

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2016, 05:52:52 am »

there is every bit as much skill required to do the drawings to produce a part by 3d printer, its just a different skill.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2016, 06:19:32 am »


 :o :o :o

Oops its back once again.

Is it or isn't it.

In fact like most words "scratch building" no longer has the original meaning.
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nivapilot

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2016, 08:22:57 am »

Surely scratch building means "making parts or fittings not available"
Irrespective of the method used to get the end result.
Years ago, would the humble table saw, or fret saw have been in the same category of the 3d printer today?

just different skill sets, using the latest technology.
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mrlownotes

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2016, 09:08:48 am »

Looking at this issue from a different perspective,  I pose the following -

 There are two models being exhibited in a scale exhibition and they look identical.

All the fittings on one have been produced by 3D printer.

All the fittings on the other have been made by hand tooling wood/wire/brass etc.

The 64 million dollar question :-

Which one do you admire the most and if prizes are being awarded which one do the judges give the rosette to ?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2016, 09:28:24 am »

This is a subject which has been extensively discussed previously to no definitive conclusion except that:

A. Everyone has their own definition of what constitutes 'scratchbuilding'.

B. It doesn't matter anyway as scale modellers no longer tend to enter their models into competitions.

The answer to Mrlownotes question above is that it will depend on the specific rules applying to that particular competition. All competitions have their own set of rules and they often differ considerably in classes and detail. The MPBA rules were the closest to a 'national' standard see http://www.mpba.org.uk/scale.html but their scale competition is no longer well supported as it was in the past.

Colin
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2016, 09:37:33 am »

It depends on what the judges (usually normal mortals not pulling a trolley full of reference works) know, see and are told.
One of my mates has a battleship that has, by its nature, a lot of repeat parts.  He bought the necessary and learned to mould.  He also, when showing, has a demo of the method alongside it.  No questions, its scratch.  Without that, anybodys guess.
It can be quite annoying for somebody who has genuinely built from plans and planks and bis of brass to be told authoritatively that his model is a kit, even if it came as an unintended compliment.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2016, 09:54:02 am »

Personally I am impressed when people set out to build something unique or out of the ordinary as opposed to the umpteen Bismarcks , Titanics, Corvettes and other common subjects which make up a good proportion of models seen at shows. These models may sometimes use commercial parts if they are true to scale but the overall result is something special.

However, as an example of what most people might consider to be 'pure' scratchbuilding, how about this bomb vessel I saw at the Society of Model Shipwrights exhibition last week - truly carpentry in miniature and exquisite modelmaking. There were other models to a similar standard and a report will appear in Model Boats in due course.

Colin

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ChrisF

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2016, 10:17:07 am »

When I was thinking about buying a digital SLR about 3 years ago I bought some magazines to research the subject and got disillusioned by the fact that virtually every picture in the mags had been Photoshopped.

This was because I'd previously used slide film and every shot stood or fell on the composition and exposure used at the time.

But I went ahead and bought a digital SLR and glad that I did. I learnt Lightroom  (a simpler version of Photoshop) and am very pleased at some of the photos I've produced and it's great that you can remove the odd bit of litter, alter the exposure etc.

The photo has to be pretty good in the first place though as it's difficult to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

So, I've embraced the newer technology and I'm enjoying photography more because of it.

For me, as long as the main parts of the boat are built from scratch then I don't have a problem  and that's what I'm  going to do and fully intend to enjoy It!

I suppose if you're going to be really pedantic then even having plans/drawings to build from isn't really scratch built!  :-)
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Is it scratch building.
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2016, 10:21:52 am »

Don't forget you have to grow the tree too... ;)

Colin
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ChrisF

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2016, 10:24:05 am »

Nice one!
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colin-d

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2016, 10:55:43 am »

I did not know plastic grows on trees.. !  %%

or do you need the build an oil rig and a refinery to get the plastic.. {-)
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Bob K

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2016, 11:08:34 am »

For some people the "scratch built" is some kind of holier than thou one-up-manship used to elevate themselves over their peers.

Frankly, if I have a boat that is genuinely unique constructed and I can find an exact pre-made anchor or ventilator I would not bother making them from bits (although I could).  In fact, I would go out of my way to add at least a few bought fittings just to avoid being tarred with that attitude.
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Sub driver

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2016, 12:35:00 pm »

I think the term computer programmer and assembler rather than scratch builder applies.
Just my opinion
Sub.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2016, 12:48:52 pm »


If you haven't seen this, here an example on this forum.

Scratch building yes/no. :-)) :-))

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=55230.new;topicseen#new
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BFSMP

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2016, 05:42:01 pm »

I think the term computer programmer and assembler rather than scratch builder applies.
Just my opinion
Sub.

that, I agree with, sub.

no matter how good you are at drawing and designing by computer, which I am not in any way, it is the computer that is doing the "building". A quick way of building to get to water perhaps but I feel not scratch building

Jim.
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Sonar

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2016, 06:14:22 pm »

May be Not scratch building but I guess what is made is to a total scale required.

And in most cases great detail.

But It as far as I think defeats the object of building as much as you can.

Me as a starter and lost I will not have enough experience for a scratch build.

So For me  built hull and superstructure to start the very first model.

Seen a few half built models for sale but again someone has spent a lot of time ::skill ::
patience :: and cash for me just to take  credit for a completed model mainly completed by someone very experienced.

Apart from not having model skills I would most likely damage it or ruin the whole thing.

So 3d printing would be something I would consider for the above reasons.

That's now but may regret what I have written in a few years time. %)

Sonar
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Netleyned

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2016, 06:38:37 pm »

If you build a model and enjoy sailing it
What the 'H' does it matter?
Scratch RTR kit or whatever enjoy
What you do.
Count rivets, get the right shade of grey
or other colours, but  hell get it on the lake
and enjoy.
Otherwise put it in a glass case and look
at it and salivate over it.
Why build a magnificent model, fit it out with aload of expensive electronics
and be frightened of getting it wet?


Ned
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raflaunches

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2016, 07:02:17 pm »

Looking back over the past decade that I've been making model boats I think that I could only say that I've achieved approx 85-90% scratch built ever! Apart from radio gear, on our first model the only items that were bought specifically were two portholes, two propellers, a flag and some vinyl tape for the waterline but this was due to me not knowing what was available.
I've used 3D printed items on my Majestic simply because they were the correct ones available in the scale I wanted.
I think that one of the last true 'scratch builders' was the late Brian King. From his books he made everything himself by lathe, casting or moulding.
I consider myself much like BobK, if there are fittings available I'm going to use them otherwise the project could take years unless you've got all the kit to make them.
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Sonar

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2016, 08:01:04 pm »

If you build a model and enjoy sailing it
What the 'H' does it matter?
Scratch RTR kit or whatever enjoy
What you do.

Ned
As a new to the modelling scene it the way my first one is going to be.
The second  will be a little more of a challenge for me.
Hark at me I have nothing as yet and already planing a second

Got the model bug so it seems.. :-)) :}

Having in the past built a number of boats and a lot of refurbishing boats full size anything from 8 foot to 36 feet.

I know what goes where and what it is used for.

Not easy scaling down to a model I can tell you everything is a lot harder to think about.

But even so what I can not make I will buy for the first one.

Try harder for the second one but first something to float.

Sonar
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ChrisF

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2016, 08:55:19 pm »

Let's face it, when building or refurbishing a full sized boat certain things are bought it from other manufacturers so what's the difference?

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2016, 10:10:43 pm »

Let's face it, when building or refurbishing a full sized boat certain things are bought it from other manufacturers so what's the difference?

I don't think that comment has any relevance to this discussion at all, especially when everything we use in our lives never stays pure. Even Concours de elegance restorations are never fully original, but what that has to do with scratch building a model using 3d produced parts, I have absolutely no idea.

Jim.
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