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Author Topic: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!  (Read 15274 times)

chas

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2016, 10:33:45 pm »

Many years ago, I remember 2 gentlemen being snooty about a newcomers model. Why?, Because he had commercial radio gear, 'proper' modelers made their own. Times change and so must we, our boats are for enjoying, so we should do whatever it takes to enjoy our own without deriding others efforts.
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BFSMP

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2016, 10:43:16 pm »

Many years ago, I remember 2 gentlemen being snooty about a newcomers model. Why?, Because he had commercial radio gear, 'proper' modelers made their own. Times change and so must we, our boats are for enjoying, so we should do whatever it takes to enjoy our own without deriding others efforts.

I haven't yet seen ANYONE deriding any other person's models during this discussion or in general, and all we are discussing in actual fact is whether one considers that using 3D printers to make fittings or even hulls etc are actually scratch building.

although myself I have my doubts, I have absolutely no objection at all in seeing models with crisp very detailed fittings that are hard to achieve by scratch and the fittings on the new Speedline Shannon model kit are just out of this world.

so to accuse people on here from deriding others efforts is wrong.

Jim.
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Chris57

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2016, 11:22:57 pm »

As I understand it, programming a 3D printer to print what you want takes a certain amount of skill, as does setting up a lathe or milling machine to cut a part, as does using an airbrush, etc. Etc.
If you need a skill to make a part, surely that is scratch building?
Yes you can buy off the shelf 3D printed , or lathe turned bits, which you haven't made yourself, not scratch building.
Just my take on things.


Chris
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BFSMP

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2016, 11:29:18 pm »

As I understand it, programming a 3D printer to print what you want takes a certain amount of skill, as does setting up a lathe or milling machine to cut a part, as does using an airbrush, etc. Etc.
If you need a skill to make a part, surely that is scratch building?
Yes you can buy off the shelf 3D printed , or lathe turned bits, which you haven't made yourself, not scratch building.
Just my take on things.


Chris

yes, I understand your point Chris, and putting it that way, you have a VERY valid point, and I concede overwhelming to the point in question....I shall in future look upon 3D Printed parts as justifiable scratch building.

thank you.

Jim.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2016, 11:33:45 pm »

But why would you need to 'justify' scratch building? To whom and what for?

Colin
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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2016, 11:46:05 pm »

But why would you need to 'justify' scratch building? To whom and what for?

Colin

yes Colin,  I think you do.

If you were entering a scratch built model into such as the Model Engineering Exhibition in London [ or where ever it is held now], You would have to justify to the judges that you had programmed the computer with your own drawings to produce your own certain 3d parts, that you had done all the donkey work in order for the machine [ and as Chris says, it could be a lathe or any tool to aid production]to produce those unique parts for your own unique model, as with those guidelines in the past of documented evidence to prove you had indeed scratch made those parts.....be they in wood, plastic or resin as in a printer.

Jim.
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Peter Fitness

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2016, 12:44:11 am »

My brother-in-law, George Punter, has sent a scratch built working model of a Saunderson and Mills tractor all the way from Australia to Brooklands, where this years MEX is being held. The head and arms of the driver figure were hand sculpted, then scanned and 3D printed, as the medium of the original sculpture (clay), was not robust enough. In the light of comments above, it will be interesting to see what the judges make of this. I assume that 3D printing will, in this case, be viewed in the same way as use of a lathe would be.


As a matter of interest, the tractor has been the subject of a series of articles in the magazine, Model Engineer, which some members may have seen. George and my sister are off to England soon to attend the MEX, among other things.


Peter.
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tigertiger

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2016, 05:07:34 am »

If we extend Peter's argument about the lathe. Do people consider there is a difference between hand turning and milling, Vs computer controlled lathes and milling machines. Personally I do see a difference, even if I program the machine/produce the CAD files; and that is not elitism or snobbery. If we stretch the example, is buying the CAD files, and loading them into the computer, the same as buying a plan.

I have seen prize wining scale models that were not scratch built. As someone else pointed out, producing some parts would be difficult/impossible to scratch build.
To me scratch building entails a large amount of crafting by hand, but it is certainly not state of the art.

There is an argument that 3D printing deserves its own category(ies) in modelling/engineering competitions. Because it is a totally different set of skills that are required.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2016, 07:38:43 am »

Whatever the tools he used, including lathes, milling machines, laser engravers, CNC routers and 3D printing, if the builder created the part, it is scratch.  If he bought it in, it isn't because somebody else did the scratch building.  Most kits had their parts scratch built by somebody carefully filing away at lumps of brass at some stage, but not the eventual builder/owner.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2016, 10:50:00 am »

 Jim,
 
I fully agree that if you are entering a serious competition then you need to be able to demonstrate to the judges the work and skills you have brought to your model but just how many people still enter proper competitions these days? At shows you will see many superb models but they rarely appear in what’s left of the major marine modelling competitions. I would reckon that less than 5% of scale model boaters enter competitions, hence my comment that a definition of scratch building is irrelevant to most people. Back in the 70s & 80s it was a different matter with events like the MPBA scale championship where you had to attend qualifying regattas to stand a chance of a place in the national final but that is all water under the bridge now – glory days indeed.
 
I have been a marine judge at the original MEX for 30 years now. When I started there were frequently 20 or more models in many of its 10 classes and we had a large judging panel which took a whole day prior to the exhibition opening to scrutinise the models. In recent years typical entries have been under 20 overall across all classes from perhaps 14 entrants with an average age over 70. To some extent this may reflect the general decline of the show but I think it is not untypical. Most modellers these days have no wish to enter competitions.
 
The MEX marine rules have not changed and pre date photo etching and moulding, let alone 3D printing! Entrants are simply asked to state which items on the model they have not made themselves. However, at this level it is expected that they will provide documentation on how they have researched and built their model so the information is usually there.
 
Judging categories for the MEX are:
Realism/Effect - (some models are intended to be ‘ornamental’ such as Admiralty Board Models)
Complexity – How much work was entailed in building the model.
Detail/Workmanship – The quality of craftsmanship
Finish – Quality of painting, absence of glue marks etc.
Documents and Presentation – Amount of research, how the model is displayed etc.
Judge’s Bonus – A bit extra for depicting an unusual prototype or anything else that makes the model stand out which is not covered in the other categories.
 
No attempt is made to try and define the value of particular techniques as this would be pretty much impossible. It is left to the judgement of the judges, after all that is what they are there for!
Colin
 
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Ian K

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2016, 11:09:01 am »

I remember this debate was raised in the 1980's, when a few adventerous modellers started producng their own white metal and resin cast fittings.

This was the route I took as well. The argument was and is, if you produce the master pattern and then duplicate the parts cast in silicon rubber moulds....is it scratch building?

In a word yes...because you created the original pattern part. Therefore...if you create the 3d drawing and get it printed then the previous description still applies. That is, if it is not made a commercially available item.

Once the item is in the commercial domain, then it is no longer unique to the original one off model it was designed or made for. The terminology of semi kit was brought in to cover the grey cross over area between exact/scratch and kit constructions.

I see 3d printing as another useful tool for the model maker! Even though I don't have a clue how to use cad programs, I respect those that do and admire the work they produce with it. How can it be any different to using a lathe, band saw or any other type of tool we normally use?

It is called technological progress and we must accept it for what it is, another useful modelling tool.


Ian
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ChrisF

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2016, 12:57:29 pm »

I don't think that comment has any relevance to this discussion at all, especially when everything we use in our lives never stays pure. Even Concours de elegance restorations are never fully original, but what that has to do with scratch building a model using 3d produced parts, I have absolutely no idea.

Jim.

I was replying to Sonar's post which in itself isn't really relevant to your question.

Most threads on all forums go off topic and have comments that may not be relevant to the OP, that's the nature of the beast. Without those contributions many threads would be very short lived.

Next time you post a question I'll make sure that I check that anything I say is completely relevant though I probably won't bother anyway.

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Nemo

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2016, 09:39:20 pm »

If you build a model and enjoy sailing it
What the 'H' does it matter?
Scratch RTR kit or whatever enjoy
What you do.
Count rivets, get the right shade of grey
or other colours, but  hell get it on the lake
and enjoy.
Otherwise put it in a glass case and look
at it and salivate over it.
Why build a magnificent model, fit it out with aload of expensive electronics
and be frightened of getting it wet?
Ned

Exactly Ned. Does it matter a whit what terminology we use for a boat built by yourself from basic materials, whatever they are, wood, plastic, whatever. I always thought the term 'scratchbuilt' was a daft term, and anyway and who cares as long as you are proud of what you produced with your bare hands - warts and all. I have only been at this model boat making hobby for a few years, starting with absolutely no idea what to do and I am proud of what I now produce and sail, again - warts and all! Nine times out of ten I am asked 'Did you build it yourself?', the tenth one asks, 'Was it built from scratch?'  Good luck to the 3D-ers - we are all in the same boat!
Bob. 
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david48

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2016, 12:21:48 am »

                                                                                                                                         from the very beginning, especially without making use of or relying on any previous work for assistance:
"he built his own computer company from scratch"
I was interested what the dictionary said about scratch building , at  the end of the day what ever floats  your boat  just enjoy .
David
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nivapilot

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2016, 07:17:10 am »

Surely if these "modern" ideas are not to be termed "scratch built" then anything with a fibreglass commercial hull is also not scratch built?
Where do you draw the line?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2016, 09:46:26 am »

If a model with a commercial GRP hull is entered into a 'scratch built' competition then it is unlikely to gain an award because the builder has bought in a large chunk of the model.

Drawing the line used to be relatively easy as 50 or so years ago the only options were to make everything yourself with basic materials or buy a complete kit. Since then, with the development of the commercial sector and new techniques such as cheap white metal moulding, photo etching and now of course 3D printing, the options have grown enormously so it is pretty much impossible to cover every eventuality in a set of competition rules.

For example, to obtain fittings from 3D printing you might take an original drawing, adapt it using CAD for 3D printing and set it up and print it on your own home assembled 3D printer. Or you might take your original drawing and have it adapted for3D printing by a bureau who will give you the file back to print out on your pre assembled 3D printer. Or you might adapt the drawing yourself and give the file to somebody else with a 3D printer to print out because you can't afford one. Then again you might make a prototype fitting of which you need lots yourself and have it 3D scanned to produce a file which you or someone else can print off.

Just how do you reflect all those options in terms of awarding points to a model?

Colin
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Ron Rees

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2016, 02:00:13 pm »

Hi All,


Just couldn't resist putting my oar in!!!.


In the beginning I built from kits and maybe made a few extra bits myself to make mine different or better, not scratch building.
As my skills and knowledge grew and my finances allowed, I built up a very nice workshop, with lots of lovely 'toys' as my wife calls them, to play with.
No matter what 'stuff' I had, I had to learn how to use them. Courses, help from some wonderful and skilled modellers, who are no longer with us,  practice and hard work brought rewards and now I am happy to teach newcomers those hard won skills. Now a retired Engineering and Design and Technology teacher, I continue to learn and attempt to make things that will keep my brain sharp and my interest high.


I am a 'Scratch-builder' and proud of it, I enjoy finding subjects, boats usually, that no-one has done before, which often means that the parts needed cannot be bought, anywhere. As a result I have embraced all aspects of our wonderful hobby and learnt even more new skills as technology moves along. Long gone are the Casein and animal glues of my past and now we have Cyano-acrylates and so on, the wooden block planes along with their Record and Stanley newcomers now sit unused near the planer machine and the router. I've even built a Pole- lathe to turn wood and soft metals, but a shiney new Myford sits in its place.


I now make the patterns and cast in Resin the parts I need if more than a couple are needed, I will make a tool to turn handrail parts and I have taught myself how to etch parts as well. Still everything I do is original to me, I do the research, the drawings, the patterns and make the whole thing by dint of my own skill and work....That is Building from Scratch.


Also on my workbench is a Prusa i3 3D printer, which I researched how to make, bought all the bits for (and made some) and made myself. I had to buy a Drawing program and the Idiots guide on how to use it as well as the Slicer (G. Code programs) and I have spent the last 3 years on and off teaching myself how to use it, like I did with my Etching stuff and my Milling machine. When I actually manage to get a drawing right I produce some nice parts, which invariably become the masters for a resin mould. Now I think that is 'Building from Scratch as well'


None of this is any big deal, I do what I enjoy and so do hundreds of others out there, don't knock them, there are building from scratch as far as they can as well, besides its all fun, no matter how you do it, long may it all last.


Ron.
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NFMike

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2016, 04:17:44 pm »

I think perhaps that when someone does the work to produce a pattern, be it a mould for castings or a cad file for 3D printing or cnc, then the first item produced is 'scratchbuilt'. Subsequent items I'd personally class as 'production' and not scratch.

Just the way my mind works  :-) . I think that as said by someone earlier the days of true scratchbuilding are probably gone anyway.

unbuiltnautilus

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2016, 10:52:11 pm »

 We have, within the Display Team, a rather wonderful rendition of a World War One British Mark 1 tank. The model is entirely scratch built, from drawings produced using CAD, plus extensive measuring of the only Mark 1 at the Bovington Tank Museum. The project has been many years in build and uses entirely modern techniques. The entire model was designed first in Google Sketch up, now in a more sophisticated program whose name escapes me. The major hull parts were designed by the builder, then out sourced to a laser cutting firm. The inner core being ply, then clad with aluminium. Track parts were designed in house and a master 3D printed by Shapeways. This was then sent to a lost wax casting company where 180 plus copies were produced in metal. The track plates cut and pressed on a couple of metal forming tools using hand produced master parts. The detail parts were either 3D printed in the kitchen or the finer parts, once designed, outsourced again to Shapeways. The model is now mostly complete, and has been run at a number of shows ( I managed to inflict some serious damage on it at a show in May! ), should be at the Southern Model Show in early september.
My point being this, the model has been seen 'in build' at many shows over the last four years. The members all pitch in when anybody shows interest in the construction and the challenges encountered in the design of the model. Discussion with members of the public and fellow modellers alike lead me to the conclusion that despite the outsourcing of laser cutting etc, this is a true scratch build the modeller can be proud of, and represents a 21st century scratch build, as opposed to the more traditional, and immensely worthy scratch builds of previous years.
We must embrace the new while being grateful for what has gone before, on the shoulders of giants and all that....
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2016, 11:10:42 pm »

It would be utterly pointless to try and discourage technological developments which assist in building the model you want. All innovations should be embraced. The fact that they may drive a coach and horses through some traditional competition scoring systems is just collateral damage!

Competitions are still possible, they simply require the builder to state clearly exactly what they have done and that the judges are savvy enough to be able to evaluate these statements to make valid comparisons between models. A tall order maybe, but certainly not impossible but you do have to have confidence in the judgement of the judges!

Colin
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Chris57

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2016, 12:47:02 am »


"and represents a 21st century scratch build, as opposed to the more traditional, and immensely worthy scratch builds of previous years. ".

Perhaps this the way forward with this; is the model scratch built using 20th century technology, no 3D printing or 21st 3D printing, laser cutting, cad lathing etc allowed?

  :-  Scratch built class 1 or 2

Just a thought

Chris
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BFSMP

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2016, 01:21:58 am »

This has been an excellent discussion, gentlemen, and I have learned much about scratch building and what goes into it, plus the pro's and cons of the topic.

it was all brought about by a prejudged concept  that using 3D printers was, for want of a better word, "cheating", but now having listened to all the arguments for, and not so many, against 3D printed fittings I can see it is the way forward to get the best finish possible on a model.

I was incredibly impressed by the standard of fittings on the new Shannon lifeboat kit from Speedline models, and certainly look forward to seeing a finished model and kit. I better get saving.

Thank you all.

Jim
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Peter Fitness

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2016, 06:30:37 am »

After having read all the arguments for and against, all I can say is "Thank goodness I don't enter any competitions" %)


Peter.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2016, 06:41:34 am »

Nor does hardly anyone else Peter!

Colin
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: 3D printing ..... is it scratch building?!
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2016, 08:47:26 am »

All I can say is 'thank god I don't have to JUDGE any competitions!'
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