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Author Topic: Engine Size and General Advice  (Read 10967 times)

Mark T

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Engine Size and General Advice
« on: November 11, 2016, 03:01:06 pm »

Hi All


My first post in the steam section so here goes;  Now that I'm nearing the end of my current build I am thinking about making my next build steam powered.  I'm currently reading a couple of books namely 'scale model steam boats' by Phillip Williams and 'model marine steam' by Stan Bray.  They are both very informative and easy to read and are helping me get a grounding before making the leap.  I'm not entirely new to steam as I have worked on industrial steam mainly turbines and pipework so I understand the respect that it requires.


I'm thinking about building the Panart Anteo Harbour Tug which is 1:30 scale and it looks like a nice model with a double planked hull.  I am also thinking about powering it with an Anton steam plant.  Now I know that they are very expensive but having looked a a few options I really love the engineering that these motors have but I am obviously only basing this on what I've read and not actual experience.


So would a combination of this tug and a Anton Crystal 3.1 motor work well together?  Can anyone forsee any fitting issues that would stop me in my tracks?  Ideally I would like to buy all of my steam plant from the same manufacturer and although the lead times are quite long Anton can do this for me.  I like the idea of being able to go to one supplier should any issues arise.  If you could share your thoughts with me I would very much appreciate it.  I do have a million other questions but this is my first step in getting this project moving.


Oh and one last thing - If I did buy from France would I need to get a British certification for the boiler?


Thanks Mark

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2016, 06:06:18 pm »

Bonjour Mark,
As a French steam passionate who buys for his collection, I have several Anton http://www.anton-vapeur.fr/ and several JMC http://jmc.vapeur.free.fr/ steam plants. Both of them are reliable and just for me, as you talk about the Cristal : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42f1uoF22NU I would suggest you also to look at the JMC 3 cm3 :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBwO-jLAfnI which is in my Lechalas : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46kYI-yJyB0


The two engines also exist in 4,5 cm3 for Anton and 5 cm3 for JMC (in my 1,32 m / 11 kilos Jacques tug ).


When  I started in my passion, I had in mind 1 kilos = 1 cm3, and with experience, at our scale, it can be wrong, our steam plants are too powerful and our boats too fast. For example, I have a 16 kilos Fulgerul which is equipped with two 2 cm3 Quartz Anton : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jombigGCM8.


To my opinion, the impottant thing is to find the appropriate propeller and boiler to the engine, large enough, but not too much, to let the engine run gently and save steam for autonomy.


Besides this, a tug needs power and, if you build this 1,20 m / 27 kilos Anteo tug :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1B6etQ30b8 I fear 3 cm3 will not be enugh.


My 21 kilos / 1,20m tug JAN has a Stuart D10, but I navigate pulled by it at 1 bar !  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l_-js-fX_I 


There is an alternative quite less expensive in China but it is a 6,78 cm3 : http://www.microcosm-engine.com/ and the boiler sold with it is too small for me : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO16806-3pM


In France, I confirm, we do not go to an official certification organism for our little boilers, it is not a problem, they are 1,5 mm copper thick and can run without problem at 10 bars (Anton and JMC test them at this pressure).
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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2016, 06:18:34 pm »

Bonjour Mark,

In France, I confirm, we do not go to an official certification organism for our little boilers, it is not a problem, they are 1,5 mm copper thick and can run without problem at 10 bars (Anton and JMC test them at this pressure).


  And there was me thinking we had to test our small boilers because of an EEC directive       Vive la différence         Balders
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Mark T

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2016, 09:06:55 pm »

Bonjour


Thanks very much for your input and also the attached links.  That makes some very interesting watching however those models are bigger than the one I intend to build.  Sorry thats my fault as I should have said about the size of the hull of the model that I am interested in building. 


The model that I was thinking about is 0.890 meters in length which is a little bit smaller than the models in the links.  However do you think that a 4.5 engine would be more suitable?  It was Anton that recommended the 3.1 engine but I take your point about matching the correct boiler, engine, propeller size to get the best from the combination.


I'm very wary of buying Chinese motors. Now I know that they are a lot cheaper but in my experience of buying this kind of item is that they have no after sales back up.  This would be very important for me and I would rather pay more to get good manufacturer guarantees.  I guess if I had more experience in this area I may not be so bothered.


I don't mind not getting the correct certification with the boiler as from what I have read of this product it is top notch.  So I guess with a bit of planning I could get it certified in the UK - well I like to think that I could?


Can you see any issues with fitting a steam plant in this particular hull? http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/info_1_743.html

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2016, 08:51:25 am »

Bonjour Mark,
Sorry, I had in mind the Anteo I saw and should have asked you the size of yours.

Based on this new assumption, my owm opinion, and I would be happy if other members would confirm it is that a 3.1 cm3, coming from Anton is enough  :-))

Yes, you will have room enough to install a steam plant in 90 cm. As another example, my 0,82 cm Otto Lauffer and Jan de Sterke tugs navigate quite well with 2 cm3 JMC steam pants : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGLRY3JCiiU 

Otto has an horizontal 80 x 120 mm boiler which gives it about 20 minutes of autonomy (2 bars), but Jan has a vertical smaller one, so I added it a servo pump because its original coupled one was not efficient enough : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs1c7Xqjo9g

About China, I took the risk and have had no problem with after sales, Jin sent me or free all the missing or broken parts, the only concerns are the duration of the travel and the fact that we talk together through Google translator so possibe misundertanding (I take pictures of what I ask). I think he knows he has to be perfect and all the friends who also buy him have no problem.
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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2016, 09:53:37 am »

Thanks Raphael; looking at your videos you really have some lovely boats  :-))


I was a bit worried that a boat of that size would have been too small.  I still think that the steam plant layout will need a lot of thought as like you model Otto Lauffer I was hoping to install a water tank.  I believe that Anton make a simple lift pump that fits directly onto the crank shaft of the engine.


I need to do a lot more reading on this subject - oh and a lot of saving  {-)

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2016, 04:39:50 pm »

Bonjour Mark,
Yes Anton makes little feed pumps, example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw7LilKb7uw
And personnaly speaking, I prefer to pick-up the water in the pond, no risk of leak or miss, no weight issue, just a filter to install just in case : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKRDUUG4dxI
The Anteo hull is deep and large, you can install a steam plant, the issue is its access ==> The important thing is to plan the deck of the ship before it is finished. I have been obliged to cut the one of my JAN because it was 10 cm wide and the boiler... 12. Same problem on my Saint-Charles (another kit) {:-{   ...
A friend always tells me "If you build a steam boat, build it arount its steam plant instead of trying to install one in your boat". I confirm, he is right and you are right to take time for thinking O0
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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Mark T

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2016, 10:22:45 pm »

I think that the pump may have just been added to my want list.  My wife is going to go mad  <*<   Oh well such is life  %%

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2016, 11:15:51 pm »

I fully understand you because not only my wife lets me buy plenty of boats that literally invade our apartment  https://goo.gl/photos/bfvaHWL84YnfmgSr6 and besides this, I tinker in the dining room on a garden table after having ruined the worktop of the kitchen with my saws and drills ... It is always a curiosity for my guests because I can not clean everything everyday.
I have no doubt, she loves me as much as I love her  :-))
About your wish list, do not forget the double diaphragm gas regulator (much smoother than the single one), the RC safety gas valve and the most important... the whiste !
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Raphaël
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Mark T

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2016, 09:10:38 am »

Wow as much as my wife loves me; if I damaged the kitchen worktop even I know that I would be a dead man  :embarrassed:
Thanks for the tips and yes my wish list has just got even bigger  :-))   Could you recommend a whistle manufacturer?

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2016, 09:48:35 am »

Bonjour Mark,
I do not know many manufacturers, I buy either Anton or JMC whistles as they use metric measures compliant with their plants :
   Anton example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0WxFY4xzAM
   JMC example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA-D4mQ3I9g

And I prefer JMC ones as they have a lower sound.

If you can adapt US measures by buildind an adaptor with different threads (example for boilers which have no room https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9zPSqf2rMw), I also bought two different Micrcosm ones !
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO16806-3pM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNtaZcQYGeQ

Oups, I note that I also regularly invade the bathroom and the bathtube...

PS : A beautiful Topaz with an Anton Jade 3.1 steam plant and a JMC whistle  :}  : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kifkESTY9I4
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Raphaël
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Mark T

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2016, 11:09:05 am »

Hi Raphael


Well after some really good communications with Anton I have placed an order for a Cristal 3.1 motor, boiler, insulation kit and oil/water separator.  They have quite long lead times and he thinks that the motor will be ready early March 2017 with the boiler to follow shortly after.  This works out great for me as I want to start building around that time after I have completely finished my current build.


I have explained to them that I build slowly and that I will order all of the other parts as and when I need them including the much needed whistle  :-))  Thanks for your help and I have enjoyed watching your videos. No doubt when I start my build I will have many more questions for the forum


Mark

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2016, 07:57:18 pm »

Bonjour Mark,
Vey good choice indeed

Anton is one person, Fabrice BRETAGNE, he is appreciated all around the world, this is why he is so long. Do not forget the oiler, the RC steam valve, the gas tank, the gas regulator (double membrane is the best) and the safety RC cut gas valve. When yoi order the boiler, do not forget to mention that you will install these accessories and also ask as steam valve as I added one, otherwise, when you heat, you can not open the oiler.
On my side, I have, installed the RC gas valve and all the servos of my Cristal plant :
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMbS_AlcsmOwCWDZt6F8EF4yIJfbziyXr6Dv52y04Ts8GTu5lGhJ7qpnZJsJ8E2Ug?key=Tm5jT1Z5RjEzblRiVWRPelZBSGlBTzFnVzM3QW9n
i just have to finalize all the electrical wiring for my usual bthtub initial test  ok2
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2016, 08:13:12 pm »

Yes I spoke to Fabrice today and between his slight English and my slight French we managed to have a  good conversation.  He asked me to call back on Monday and speak to his wife as she speaks fluent English and will finalise the details of what I want.


When you say get a steam valve fitted to the boiler will she know what I mean or will I need to elaborate as I'm not sure what I'm asking for?  As for all of the other bits I will get them as I go along mainly due to cost.  I want the plant so that I can make sure it fits perfectly into the build.


Your build looks absolutely lovely  :-))

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2016, 08:32:20 pm »

Bonjour Mark,


I know Fabrice and Christine well, so I have added pictures of all what I mention in the album whose link is in my previous message, I send them the link so that you can refer to the pictures to explain what you wish  :-))
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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2016, 08:35:52 pm »

Fantastic thanks Raphael  :-))   I'll let you know how I get on but it should be straight forward.

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2016, 08:49:00 pm »

Mark......yes, Christine does speak fluent English ....however after the conversation, scribe a confirmation e-mail as a series of points and auto translate a copy to French....also ask that she acknowledges the points in the e-mail

This way should eliminate any   <:(  when you open the package due to a misunderstanding or translation

I have the T shirt  :o...... and a JMC3H engine which had weigh shaft issues.......Derek
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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2016, 03:35:54 am »

Mark...I agree with Raphael that the boiler steam should be capable of being isolated within the boiler, however to perform a hydrostatic cold water or steam retest for your Club certification would  be easier if isolation valves are fitted to every boiler port tapping

So having said this, I have three [3] fluid ports on my ACS boiler......1 x steam discharge, 1 x chosen as make up water inlet and 1 x chosen as water pressure signal for my gas pressure reducing valve

After spending a working lifetime of inspecting fluid systems for pressure integrity in Mercantile, Naval and industrial hydraulic system's, using appropriate isolation valving was a pre-requisite  ....[it may seem odd, however establishing the source of fluid decay at 250 Bar is fare easier than at pressures of 2 to 5 Bar] 

From this, I have installed isolation valves to each of the 3 tapping's 

[Remember that the ANTON boiler will have M6 port tapping's, so any connection fitting must be metric and not any of the myriad of British ME/BA/BSF tapping's that do appear in British manufactured boilers]

Derek


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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2016, 07:09:27 am »

OK......to the PM sender...yes I am incorrect :embarrassed:......the boiler has 2 additional tapping's O0.....a water filling tapping port and the relief valve tapping port .............however these are sealed with an SAE or UNO style semi captive O-ring......however as such are still subjected to the pressure of the hydrostatic test .....Derek
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Mark T

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2016, 09:59:01 am »

Hi Derek thanks for the advice I suddenly feel that I am the only person on Mayhem who does not know Fabrice and Christine  {-)  but I am looking forward to getting to know them.


I now have a far better understanding of what I require so thanks for that.  When I call Christine I think I will ask if they can supply the boiler with an isolation valve for each outlet so that I have actually got them even if I relocate some of them to the pipework at a later date.  Having thought this through I can imagine the bother of having to seal every outlet after moving the existing pipework etc out of the way for any test - no thanks  {:-{  I'll fit the valves


I do have one question that I cannot seem to find an answer for; from what I can see I can fit a lift pump to fill a water tank which then fills the boiler to prolong sailing times.  If I have understood this correctly how does low / no pressure water enter a high pressure boiler?

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2016, 11:02:02 am »

Mark........yes the make up water check valve before the boiler is shown in image ....993.....here is a better view

Each water make up pump [which has the capability of exceeding the boiler pressure] has an integral suction and deliver valve which acts as a check valve. In addition to this I have installed an additional check valve on the discharge side of the pump spools

The check valves chosen are the Winfried Niggle "in line" soft ball style valves......they have proved to withstand 6 Bar test pressure
___________________________________________________________________________
Rückschlagventil-Inline 450 100
17.10 €
incl. MwSt
zzgl. Versand
Rückschlagventil-Inline 450 100
Material: Messing
Länge: 43 mm über alles
Durchmesser: SW 10 mm
Rohr-Anschluss: Beidseitige Verschraubungen mit Konuseinlötnippeln und Überwurfmuttern für 4mm Rohr.
Die Elastomere-Ventilkugel schliesst absolut dicht.
Für den Einbau von Speisepumpe zum Kessel
Durchflussrichtung eingraviert
________________________________________________________________

Derek
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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2016, 01:47:30 pm »

Ahh now that makes sense  :-))   Do you feed this water into a tank before the boiler or do you just feed the pump directly into the boiler?  Nice pipework by the way especially the smart looking flanges.

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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2016, 09:11:57 pm »

Mark......the only sailing water available to me is brackish [salt meets fresh] so I will need to build an on board tank

Having said this, many model steam builds on MBM draw water from under the vessel...[Jerry C's build thread] details this very well...he also sails on very clean [drinkable] fresh water
 
If you intend to sail on clean water, you could consider one of the DuBRO model aeroplane fuel filters ......will only keep floating leave & the like out

You need to remember not to restrict the pump suction line by design

Just one last point with the isolation valves [M6 to 3 or 4 mm tube] from ANTON......if you do order these, have them supplied as loose items. This then gives you the opportunity to install them with the necessary annealed copper or aluminium washers to attain the tube alignment you require as opposed to being preinstalled with French Loctite

This is only one scenario...yes have a French steam discharge valve for direct porting to the boiler, then have metric screwed close fitting 90 degree banjo fittings then install British [tube to tube] isolation valves. This may assist in the placement of components 

You also mention earlier additional French gas or water components, again remember these fittings will have metric nuts & cones.......[a 3mm cone will accept 1/8" OD tubing, a 4mm cone will accept 5/32" OD tubing]

I am often scalded for going to extremes, however you also mention a French lubricator......there are alternatives which include quartz glass like lubricator bodies which provide a visual confirmation of steam oil to condensate level.......more expensive than a sealed brass body....however I suggest is cheap insurance for your valuable steam plant

Winfried Niggle [Germany] produces such a lubricator, Microcosm [China] produces a variant of quartz tube within a scalloped brass body...

I have chosen the Niggle lubricator [image below], simply as it was available and prior to the Microcosm production...next time around I see no reason not to use the Microcosm unit

Derek
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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2016, 09:39:02 pm »

Bonjour,
Personally, most of my boats with coupled pumps take water in the pond like the tugs Moulay-Idris or Jan with  RC car fuel filters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKRDUUG4dxI ==> never got any problem.
About glass lubricators, I also have several ones (JMC and Microcosm): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPt0ouL8kzc I have to confess that I find them less efficient than the full metal ones, they use less oil, perhaps because the glass cools less than the metal, so the steam has more difficulties to come back to water. For fun, see the size of the one I coupled to the D10 of Jan.
During my last tests, the lubricator Microcosm did not consume oil, I have enlarged its intake hole and have to make new tests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO16806-3pM I also find its disposition not the best because not on the flow of the steam.
It is a pity that there is no worldwide norm for measures, European are metrics, USA, GB or China imperial, so it is very difficult for buyers like me to mix the products.
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Re: Engine Size and General Advice
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2016, 10:16:19 pm »

Bonjour Raphael

Your comments are every interesting.. I have chosen a lubricator with fixed orifice, although Winfried Niggle produces the same unit, however with a variable metering valve for oil flow

Here in Australia with higher ambient temperatures such condensation does not appear to be a problem

In a perfect world, I would like to think manufacture's would adopt German metric [to DIN] as the standard........as metric fittings can vary between Germany, France and Japan.... yes all metric 60 degree thread form....but  <*< different diameters x pitches.....

Derek




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