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Author Topic: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?  (Read 42090 times)

Bob K

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #200 on: January 11, 2017, 12:33:24 PM »

Excellent, and necessary, question C-3PO.    However …
I do not yet have a set of plans, so your impressions from your diagram will be as good as mine.

You have numbered the turrets A to G, with A aft-most.  They were numbered 1 to 7, staring from the bow.  For the purpose of this I will use your annotation, and give degrees either side of the normal “park” position.
Note:  “0'” park positions foreward for G, F, E, C.   Aft for D, B, A.   A, b & D rotate opposite to G, F, E, C

G:   training +/- 150 ‘.  No firing, directly ahead, say +/- 20’, and beyond +/- 140’
F:   training  +/- 150’.  No firing over hood below +/- 30’, and beyond +/- 140’.
E:  training between 25’ and 150’ either side.  No firing 10’ inside this either side.
D:  training between 30’ and 150’ either side.  No firing 10’ inside this either side.
C:  training between 25’ and 150’ either side.  No firing 10’ inside this either side
B:  training  +/- 150’.  No firing over hood below +/- 30’, and beyond +/- 140’.
A:  training +/- 150 ‘.  No firing, directly astern, say +/- 20’, and beyond +/- 140’

Mostly guesswork I admit, but hopefully a starting point
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C-3PO

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #201 on: January 11, 2017, 04:02:03 PM »

Bob, thanks for this - it's a good starting point

I had to smile - forget rotating 7 turrets - rotating the image I captured by 180 degrees before I started lettering would have been a smart move - sorry for the confusion.

Regards
C-3PO
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #202 on: January 12, 2017, 01:36:31 AM »

C-3PO,

To simplify the code and any future user changes to suit other applications may I suggest the following as a good starting point.

Using your layout all forward facing turrets traverse 270 degrees to 90 degrees. The bow being due north, namely 0 degrees.
In other words 90 degrees traverse port to starboard. One set instructions for forward turrets. No fire zone, 91 degrees to 269 degrees. Not able to fire rearwards, towards stern.

It follows the rear (stern) facing turrets would differ by 180 degrees.
Namely traverse 90 degrees to 270 degrees with no fire zone 271 degrees to 89 degrees. Once again not able to fire rearwards that is towards the bow.

Don't know much about programming but you then apply one of the two "codes" to each turret.

Am I missing something  ?????
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C-3PO

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #203 on: January 12, 2017, 09:09:28 AM »

RAAArtyGunner,

You say you don't know much about programming but your approach is very logical and makes complete sense re the two sets of code - one for forward facing, the other for rear facing gun turrets.

My concept allows each turret to be configured individually - however to create this I have created code as you state above and then simply copied it and the tweaked for the additional turret configurations.

Clearly the "code" will not suit all ship configurations but hopefully will be easy to understand (fully documented) so a user (can always ask for help on here) can take the core code and then modify it to suit their own use.

I have been programming on and off for nearly 38 years and still get a kick out of solving a logical problem and then implementing it successfully in code - and I still find that I learn new things most weeks which is also quite satisfying.

I dabble with this when time permits simply to keep my my mind active - the thought process / problem solving activity seems to take place when dog walking, washing up, watching tv, talking to the wife

C-3PO
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #204 on: January 12, 2017, 12:15:21 PM »

 
                  {-)
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C-3PO

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #205 on: January 12, 2017, 12:27:32 PM »

Bob/Colin...

I have pretty much finished this - just need to refine the code - remove any stray development code and optimise it's performance and complete final testing and then document to save lots of questions.

I am about to move onto the whistle and bells aspect - allowing simulated gun fire to be triggered from the TX (sound and light & smoke)

I also have thought about incorporating azimuth control - additional steppers.

I have no understanding of the sequence of events re azimuth movement of a gun - indeed real world and model simulated world may be different.

Would you want the gun to automatically move down after a shell has been fired to allow/assist reload?
What angle would it train down / up to?
Is there any kick (movement of turret/ or gun in the turret) as the shell is fired?
Would you simulate auto down after fire and then auto up to perhaps different angles per turret to allow another shell to be fired?

Regards
C-3PO


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Colin Bishop

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #206 on: January 12, 2017, 12:42:45 PM »

For the period we are looking at and starting with a loaded gun run out ready to fire:

The gun fires and recoils.
The gun is then run out by hydraulics, compressed air or springs and is immediately lowered to the loading position, typically 2 to 5 degrees in elevation. (Agincourt had a fixed 5 degree loading position).
The gun is then loaded and re elevated to the firing position.

To add to the complication, guns were typically fired in salvos so in a twin turret the guns would fire alternately. Broadsides, with all guns firing at once, could, and were sometimes used, (Agincourt at Jutland) but this tended to strain the hull and structure and cause additional blast damage. Salvoes also aided ranging on the target as there was less of an interval in firing at it which helped in making corrections.

The issues in simulating all this would lie in the mechanics rather than the computer code I think! A lot of mechanism to cram into the turret. Still, the code could be there if somebody wanted to use it.

You would also need to know the 'range to target' which would dictate the maximum elevation of the gun but again this could be optional as with the other bells and whistles items.

Colin
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #207 on: January 12, 2017, 12:53:58 PM »

I have pretty much finished this - just need to refine the code - remove any stray development code and optimise it's performance and complete final testing and then document to save lots of questions.

I am about to move onto the whistle and bells aspect - allowing simulated gun fire to be triggered from the TX (sound and light & smoke)

Regards
C-3PO

I noted that ion Ralph's video, he 'shuts down' the stepper motors, when not in use, to save battery power.....
 
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C-3PO

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #208 on: January 12, 2017, 01:01:40 PM »

Quote
I noted that ion Ralph's video, he 'shuts down' the stepper motors, when not in use, to save battery power.....

Martin - Yup  a must - if you can see any of the LED's glowing on the little driver boards you can guarantee the stepper motor is energised and getting warm

Colin - engineering/mechanics is not my strong point - the steppers are pretty small - maybe they could be mounted below deck - the azimuth control either with push rod or belt driven

A quick after thought - the steppers are quite heavy and I am sure the closer to the keel the better to stop a top heavy model - over to the engineers/mechanics to solve...

C-3PO
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Bob K

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #209 on: January 12, 2017, 02:47:48 PM »

Those steppers are incredibly small, hopefully "man enough" for the job.
From a practical point of view there really is no need for gears or rubber bands.  A simple 1:1 shaft connection on the same axis as the barbette centreline.  This also keeps the stepper low in the hull and makes access easier.
Maybe with a rubber tube "prop shaft coupler" for mechanical safety.

I too envisage two similar sub routine sets, one each for whether park position is forward or aft facing.

If each turret sub routine contains a set of "commented" and editable values for the max/min rotation and firing limits users (like me) can edit those to suit the local requirements for that particular turret.

If this is anything like other programming languages I have used there should be the ability to set both global and local variables, the former to calculate common values such as bearing, the later to set (eg) turret B rotation limits.
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Bob K

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #210 on: January 12, 2017, 02:59:54 PM »

You would also need to know the 'range to target' which would dictate the maximum elevation of the gun but again this could be optional as with the other bells and whistles items.

Colin

All getting too complicated.  Next may be suggested using "range" to calculate the slight convergence between guns at each end of the ship.  In practice lack of accuracy relied on a degree of spread in the fall of shot. ie:  All pointed in the same direction / elevation for a centrally commanded range.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #211 on: January 12, 2017, 03:08:08 PM »

I agree, a fixed elevation would be sufficient for a model. Most of these ships could only elevate to around 15 degrees anyway.

But if you were actually proposing to shoot somebody...... :o

Colin
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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #212 on: January 12, 2017, 03:10:56 PM »

Given the volume available below the turret and within the barbette diameter at 1/72nd/1/96th scales, I suspect there's enough room for pretty much anything in terms of additional functions. The turret could be seen as just a mechanical "head" for the guns' recoil and elevation.


Andy
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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #213 on: January 12, 2017, 03:15:04 PM »


If this is anything like other programming languages I have used there should be the ability to set both global and local variables, the former to calculate common values such as bearing, the later to set (eg) turret B rotation limits.

Bob - The Arduino language is based on C/C++ so you are quite right it can have a configuration section where all the variables can be set

Quote
Those steppers are incredibly small, hopefully "man enough" for the job.

Because of the internal gear box they have some serious grunt - I would suggest much more than a normal servo - I don't think you would be able to stop rotation with your fingers - I will try this out

Generic 28BYJ specification
Rated voltage : 5VDC
Number of Phase 4
Speed Variation Ratio 1/64
Stride Angle 5.625° /64
Frequency 100Hz
DC resistance 50Ω±7%(25℃)
Idle In-traction Frequency > 600Hz
Idle Out-traction Frequency > 1000Hz
In-traction Torque >34.3mN.m(120Hz)
Self-positioning Torque >34.3mN.m
Friction torque 600-1200 gf.cm
Pull in torque 300 gf.cm
Insulated resistance >10MΩ(500V)
Insulated electricity power 600VAC/1mA/1s
Insulation grade A
Rise in Temperature <40K(120Hz)
Noise <35dB(120Hz,No load,10cm)
Model 28BYJ-48 – 5V

Regards
Jonathan
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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #214 on: January 12, 2017, 03:33:00 PM »

This a complete program to control a stepper - maybe it will help dispel some of the myth - it's not the greatest - but it does work (never, ever, ever use the delay() command - it's a bad habit and will cause you heartache/ high blood pressure at some point)
All text preceded by the double slash // is remark/comment documention/ explanation text and is not an part of the actual program commands

Quote
#include <Stepper.h>

const int stepsPerRevolution = 200;  // program variable - change this to fit the number of steps per revolution
// for your motor

// initialize the stepper library on pins 8 through 11:
Stepper myStepper(stepsPerRevolution, 8, 9, 10, 11);

void setup() {
  // set the speed at 60 rpm:
  myStepper.setSpeed(60);
  // initialize the serial port:
  Serial.begin(9600);
}

void loop() {
  // step one revolution  in one direction:
  Serial.println("clockwise");
  myStepper.step(stepsPerRevolution);
  delay(500);

  // step one revolution in the other direction:
  Serial.println("counterclockwise");
  myStepper.step(-stepsPerRevolution);
  delay(500);
}

And without the Serial.print which sends text to your PC screen via the USB port (mainly used for debugging) or the comment text it looks like this - not much to it!


Quote
#include <Stepper.h>

const int stepsPerRevolution = 200; 

Stepper myStepper(stepsPerRevolution, 8, 9, 10, 11);

void setup() {
 
  myStepper.setSpeed(60);
 
}

void loop() {
 
  myStepper.step(stepsPerRevolution);
  delay(500);

 
  myStepper.step(-stepsPerRevolution);
  delay(500);
}
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Bob K

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #215 on: January 12, 2017, 03:57:01 PM »

Well, I can follow that syntax as you have written it.  The helpful remarks/comments make it easier to identify what value to edit, if required.   I never did C or C++, but the logic involved is clearer when written as you have done.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #216 on: January 12, 2017, 04:28:04 PM »

 
NB: Jonathan & C-3PO: when you have BobK sorted out, will you help me make my Bismarck turrets do this?!

      YouTube


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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #217 on: January 12, 2017, 04:34:24 PM »

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #218 on: January 12, 2017, 08:38:32 PM »

Beautiful, that takes me right Bach.

Seriously though, would the resonance of the stepper motors cause atonal sounds eminating through the hull? Would it be wise to mount the steppers in vibration damping, say rubber mat to stop Bob's ship sounding odd?

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dreadnought72

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #219 on: January 12, 2017, 09:52:05 PM »

Now this is getting silly%%


Meanwhile, the steppers are fairly quiet - certainly no worse than servos - but seeing the guitar soundbox/boxy hull connection, it might well be worth mounting them on a rubber mat.


Andy

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Bob K

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #220 on: January 12, 2017, 10:25:45 PM »

In a hull seven foot long I doubt that any servo type noise level will be audible, but mounting on rubber pads is a good idea anyway.

To answer Martin's question re Bismarck, just use the turret routines for A, B, F, and G
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C-3PO

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #221 on: January 13, 2017, 11:37:00 AM »

I thought it could be fun to give this project/system a name (acronym)

There are some very quick thinking, witty people of this forum - so with some trepidation I invite your suggestions - please keep them clean!

The best I could come up with was WARTS - as in WARship Turret System - feeble really.

So it will be interesting to see other creative suggestions

C-3PO
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #222 on: January 13, 2017, 12:52:55 PM »

 
Sight Handling of Ordnance Turrets = SHoOT

Turret Remote Order Train & Control = TroTac

Remote Electronic Turret Training user Maintained = RETTuM

Modellers Continual Pursuit of the Almost Impossible = McPotaI


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Bob K

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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #223 on: January 13, 2017, 03:48:53 PM »

Hard to beat that Martin.

My attempt:  BEATGATOTO    Blooming 'Eck,  Are Those Guns Actually Training On Thier Own ?
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Re: Rotating seven gun turrets?
« Reply #224 on: January 13, 2017, 04:06:27 PM »

Ship Hosted Independent Turret Equipment ... hmmm ... Maybe not ideal!  %%
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