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Author Topic: MH&B Topaz Build -  (Read 33049 times)

derekwarner

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2017, 12:58:58 pm »

The point offered by Raphael [gas volume to water use] is off course agreed :-))

The MB gas tanks with the simulated end flanges and bolts would look fine in an open launch, however the net effective length of 166 mm could be a 'long' element to consider placement

The MB tank gas volume is really not an incremental milestone as the diameter is only 32 mm, as compared to more squat tanks of a nominal 110 x 50 mm tank......which have a similar capacity for a smaller overall nominal footprint

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2017, 05:44:03 pm »


Quote
The point offered by Raphael [gas volume to water use] is off course agreed :-))

The MB gas tanks with the simulated end flanges and bolts would look fine in an open launch, however the net effective length of 166 mm could be a 'long' element to consider placement

The MB tank gas volume is really not an incremental milestone as the diameter is only 32 mm, as compared to more squat tanks of a nominal 110 x 50 mm tank......which have a similar capacity for a smaller overall nominal footprint

Derek



The advantage of the MH&B "sausage tank" is that it will go in places where you cannot fit the "pork pie"  or squat style of tank. In the Topaz for instance you can slide it down the side of the boiler. Other options are limited without disguising it as deck cargo. However you would not want to go for too long a tank as this particular hull is rated to take 6Kg weight , the boiler, engine and gubbins weigh about 2.5 Kg , add a large amount of wood and fittings and you get nervous about filling the boiler.
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derekwarner

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2017, 09:27:34 pm »

Yes naturally if the length is available for the longer gas tank, then horses for courses

Balance however becomes the issue in such a slender and light hull.......0.3 kg in balance when the gas tank is full :-)), -0.3 kg out of balance across the beam  <*< when the tank is empty

MB also manufacture a complimentary oily water condensate tank of equal design and dimension to the gas tank....if these were placed side by side of the engine, would their combined use not only increase the out of balance moment?

Jim had adopted this twin side by side layout with his current build [although with shorter tanks], so it will be interesting to see how much of an out of balance moment this creates

Derek
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jpdenver

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2017, 03:41:45 am »

Hi Everyone,

One of the interesting things about being on this side of the pond is that we answer
postings about 12 hours apart, this means that you all get to debate while I am away and visa-versa.

So - to answer the questions about the gas tank capacity -
I do not know yet.

I have only made one test run, and since I did not have any load on the
engine, I ran it only about 1/3 open.

I ran for about 45 min total, still had about 1/4 of the sightglass left, and still had gas.

I agree with all the other speculations - it will be interesting to see if the boat rolls to the side
as the gas is used up and the waste tank fills.  I am not too sure that there will be much of a change.

I think it will be after the engine is "run-in" a bit before I can get a good indication of gas usage and
timing.   I have a BIX gas regulator in place to keep my pressure steady.  That will also aid in extending the
run time.  And I always use a stop watch.

Once I have run the engine a couple of times out in the open, I plan to put it in the hull and run
it fully linked to the propeller shaft. 

I have a number of lighting fixtures and running lamps that need "pre-wired" - and I have have a
side project involving the controls for the throttle and reversing gear I will discuss soon.

Regards to all,
Thanks for reading,

Jim Pope
Denver,CO
USA
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jpdenver

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2017, 04:20:22 am »

I am adding working running lights and lamps to the kit.

I made a Bow Light with red and green leds in a pair of lanterns left over from an old build.

Then I asked a friend who designs circuits to add some wires to some surface-mount LED's

That's my pen in the picture to provide scale.

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jpdenver

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build - Lamps
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2017, 12:44:03 am »

Hello again.

I took the led's from the above post, and installed them in my lamps

Here is the result:

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rhavrane

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2017, 08:22:08 am »

Bonjour Jim,
Beautiful, Topaz worths it  :-))
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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2017, 08:57:22 pm »

It might be worthwhile trying to obtain some warm white LED's rather than the blue/white ones you are using. These lamps will look more realistic with a more yellow colour light to represent the original oil lamp.

Jim
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jpdenver

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build - Sunny in Denver
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2017, 04:17:59 pm »

Hello Again,

JimG - I think the phone camera colored the light a little.  Plus I can dim them down to a warmer glow.

It is March 18, Sunny and 75F in Denver.  So today is an excellent day to work out on the patio,

Added the rear deck, a chunk of Balsa.  I then did some rough forming with a rasp, and then finally a sanding block.
Finish up with a layer of "Spot Putty" - when that is dry , more sanding to bring all into a condition to be ready to deck.

The boiler, engine and servo mounts are embedded in the fiberglass body putty, but parts of the surface are just painted wood.
Since the will be getting hot and wet, I felt it necessary to encase the entire wood block in a coat of clear fiberglass resin.
Just enough to solidify the whole thing and hopefully not add too much to the weight. 

My next step is to begin to prime and paint the hull. 

Thanks for reading,

Jim Pope
Denver, CO
USA
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jpdenver

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build - Painting the Hull
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2017, 01:42:45 am »

I debated with myself all last week -
When to paint the hull?

I decided that I would paint it before starting on the interior.

I picked a deep dark Green, Then I added a special 2 part High Gloss Clear Coat.
It is going to sit in my garage and cure for the next week.
I figure that the Clear Coat will protect it during construction, although I
might cover it in clear plastic wrap just in case.

In between coats of paint, I tested the engine again. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVrx0mYXOps

This time I ran it for about 15 Min - only using about 1/3 of the sight glass.
So I anticipate a runtime of between 30 and 45 minutes. 

Once the paint has cured, I will mount the engine and hook it up to the shaft.
Then we will see how it does.

Here are pics of the paint job.

Thanks for reading,
Jim Pope
Denver, CO
USA





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SailorGreg

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2017, 08:53:46 am »

Lovely job Jim.  And yes, I would cover the paintwork with a protective layer while work continues.  There will be lots of sharp and abrasive things in close proximity to the hull and it would be a shame if you needed a re-paint before the maiden voyage.  Personally I would use some heavy gauge polythene taped to the hull around the gunwhale.  It doesn't have to look neat, just be effective.

Enjoying your build - keep up the good work.

Greg

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2017, 03:10:41 pm »

Hello again,

So The paint has cured, and I have used some plastic wrap to protect it.
Here in the US we have a product called "Cling Wrap" that has a very this layer
of "micro-encapsulated" adhesive that makes it cling (hence the name) but not
really stick.  Mostly used in the kitchen. 

Now that the hull is ready, I have remounted the steam plant to allow for the design of the
R/C system.  More on that later. 

So Far So Good.

Regards,
Jim
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jpdenver

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2017, 03:31:30 am »

So I went to my local model boat club meeting today.
We are know as the Colorado Crew.   

One of my friends has made me a micro-processor control
that takes the single throttle channel and converts it into
a dual servo control, one for the Steam Valve and one for the
reversing gear.


When the throttle is in the center, the steam valve is closed, and further movement
will change from forward to reverse and back again when the stick moves in the other direction.

Here is a short movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oglki_3nt3A

Next is doing some actual running in.

More to come.

Jim
 
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derekwarner

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2017, 06:21:24 am »

Jim...from what I see, the is a neutral [dead] band with the stick in mid position

1. how wide [number of clicks] on the ratchet is the dead band?...
2. is this dead band absolutely discernible?
3. can the actual reversing motion be slowed in speed?

Coming from the family of thought that these type or design of engine should actually be momentarily stopped prior to the reversing function is made......the speed of reversal is also a function that should be able to be tuned or timed

A number of manufacturers will show the reversal function being made in the blink of an eye without any form of engine speed reduction  ......however these are usually without any form of load ie., the propeller shaft and propeller

You are also relying on the M3 SHCS in your engine and the 3-56 SHCS in the HUDCO shaft coupling in maintaining themselves <*<, ie., coping with the reversal of the momentum of forces  <*< in the complete drive line

Again, I do understand that the actual reversing function uses the slowing inertia of motion so it will be interesting to hear from other members with more experience with this issue

Derek
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Derek Warner

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jpdenver

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2017, 04:07:32 pm »

Derek,

The control is based on an arduino microprocessor.  This means that the functions and speed are
100% adjustable. 
 1. - the current dead space is 1 click.
 2. - Not really discernable, but it could be widened a bit to make it easier to hit without looking down - say 3 clicks.
 3. - Yes I can have the "flip" slowed down.

I am planning on taking some time to get everything right with the Steam Plant before moving on to the rest of the interior of the
boat.  Mostly because it would really suck to have to re do a lot in such a confined space.

My primary reasoning in doing it this way was to try to reduce the chances of loosing control of the boat because I
shifted at the wrong time.  So by tying it to the throttle, I felt I would be less likely to end up dead in the water.

I am a little dyslexic and putting this on one stick makes sense.  Another reason I do not do Cars or Planes.

Thanks for the insights 
I Look forward hearing from others.

Jim
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steamboatmodel

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2017, 08:18:13 pm »


Hi Jim,
You have beat me too it, I have been kicking that idea around for a while but not having a slide valve engine at the current time it always got moved to the back burner. Any chance of getting a copy of the source code posted and a circuit diagram.
Regards,
Gerald.
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jpdenver

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2017, 09:23:27 pm »

Gerald,

I'll ask my friend.  I am sure it will be OK, but until we got the bugs out I did not ask for the source.
---------

Everyone - Especially Raphael - As you might have experience with the Anton Crystal Engine.

I need some help with physics. 
I am not getting a good head of steam up - and what I do get takes a LONG time  Like 25 min for 20lbs/sq in.

Environment:
Temp 55 deg F.
Altitude - 5000 ft above sea level.
Std Butane/Propane Camping stove fuel.  Use it in my other boats.
Jet is a 5
I adjusted the airflow on the jet orifice to get pretty little blue peaks on the ceramic Burner.
I can not get over 30 LBS/Sq In.


See the video to and compare to the previous ones to see what I am experiencing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey6Xrl9O8yc

Rough Starting, Not a good range of speed,
The addition of the prop and shaft are obviously a factor,
while they are not ball bearing smooth, it does turn pretty freely.

So - Any ideas anyone?
do I just need to do more run-ins?

Any intelligent analysis is welcome.

Thanks,
Jim Pope
Denver,CO
USA







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derekwarner

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2017, 10:20:18 pm »

Jim....the something that is wrong would appear to be ~~20% less air pressure in your City

With the Anton build, say Paris is ~~ 100 ft above sea level....so the atmospheric pressure is still close to 1 Bar or ~~ 14.*** PSI

You in Denver @ 5000 ft would experience ~~ 12.*** PSI or say ~~20% less air available for combustion

So I believe whilst you have tuned the gas burner to provide flame with light blue tips, it is the gross amount of air/oxygen available that is limiting full heating from the gas

So before you consider increasing the air draw holes in the gas nozzle carrier tube by 20% on surface area......could you pack the car & go for a drive down the hill  %) until you reach near sea level & trial the burner heating time?

Be interested to hear what others [with greater experience] think

Derek

PS....talk to a technician from your local Gas authority & ask if they use different sized/orifice air draw nozzles in gas stoves or heater appliances in your Mile High city  O0

 The famous sherpa guides of Nepal reportedly serve garlic soup to patients with altitude sickness

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Derek Warner

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derekwarner

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2017, 11:03:34 pm »

Jim.....the last paragraph from gas hot water people Rheem makes interesting reading <*<....

They even mention your city Denver CO..........

That garlic soup is smelling nicer by the moment O0.........Derek
_________________________________________________________________

Balancing the fuel-air mixture is accomplished by doing one of two things: derating the water heater or devaluing the gas fuel. Derating the water heater affects only the heater and is accomplished by replacing the orifice in the burner assembly. Devaluing the gas fuel affects only the gas and is accomplished by the local gas utility. In some areas of the country, such as Denver, CO., the local gas utility derates the BTU value of the fuel from 1050 BTUs (the BTU value at sea level) to equal the normal average altitude of the area.

If a water heater is modified for high altitude, then either the heater must be derated or the fuel must be devalued. You must do one or the other - not both!

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Derek Warner

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derekwarner

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2017, 03:18:34 am »

Jim......just a thought.....check your boiler Test Certificate.....it may be from MH&B, or Martin Bayless

Why not pen a note to the Author/Testing Authority clearly outlining both your location/elevation/ambient temperature together with your boiler and gas fill and heating times detail and ask the begging question

Reading the full article from Rheem would suggest the circumstances of high elevation and lower air pressure are problematical for conventional gas combustion

Derek 

 http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj_kuToz_XSAhWJ6YMKHXuQAbwQFggrMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rheem.com%2Fdocs%2FFetchDocument.aspx%3FID%3D60b83cc1-ff36-4b55-b757-ac5a6b665761&usg=AFQjCNELbhYGU13idFBgvrUMYOFt5Qr7wA&bvm=bv.150729734,d.cGc

Only other question is why does the Lady M & The Greyhounds Revenge not suffer such combustion issues?  :embarrassed:
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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2017, 02:25:30 pm »

Hello all,


I live at 4500 ft elevation in California, and I have a Martin Baylis triple and I have no problem reaching 60psi in short order. I normally run it a 45-50psi without any problems because the blow valve is set for 60psi.


Kind regards,


Bob
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KBIO

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2017, 12:09:59 pm »

Hello!
I do not have enough element to tell the solution, but...

I do not think that your problem is coming from a lack of O2. The %age of O2 being (+/-) the same whatever the altitude; only the Atm. Pres changes.
Not enough pressure in your gas tank will not help for sure. Above all if it's cold. Low Temp = Low Press. = weak blow.
At 5000 ft theatmosphéric pressure is lower, but good enough to work out your Steam Plant.

Most of the time, if the boiler needs more than 10 min to hardly reach 25/30 psi, it is due to the jet partly plugged in by debris. It happens more often that we believe.
Fortunately, we have here , people steaming the same plant as yours, in the Alps , at 1600 m (+/- 5300 ft) by 10°C , with no problem.
The temperature may be one, though. Yesterday, I sailed (at sea level) with a ambiant temp of 16°C. My burner supplied by 100% Butane gas. The pressure in my gas tank was too low (0.2 bar) to have a good flare. By using then, 30/70 mixture, the burner spitted as a Saudi flare in a good day. So temp may be the issue more than the altitude.
Sailing below 7°C is a problem in term of positive burner gas supply, but can be solve by using liquide phase.
The other option is to insert a thermic bridge between the gas tank and the burner. Just a piece of brass, that you can remove for hot days.
I would conclude by saying that the combination of a plugged jet and a low temp may give you hassles.But not the %age of O2.
Remember that the optimum temp for steaming is when the beer is at the right temp! %)
(except for freezed Budweiser drinkers! {-) )


Concerning your engine, I  have the feeling that the difficulty you have to restart it after a STOP is due to the synchronisation of 1/4 turn valve opening and the slide valve movement.
I think that the main steam valve opens (just a crack is enough) to pressure up the slide valve sticking it against the wall. No pressure on the other side as you stopped.
Then the servo is too weak to move this slide valve enough to allow some steam to pass and allowing the machine to run.
Maybe something to reconsider. Use one servo (stronger) for each function.


Sorry to be so talkative , but I do not see nothing wrong with your plant. I don't know if I gave the right solution, but I would look in this direction first.
Thanks for reading and sorry to be so long. Hoping you understand my "globish". %)
Regards.
MODELISME BATEAU A VAPEUR

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Re: MH&B Topaz Build - Engine Problems
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2017, 02:54:36 am »

Bob, Derek, KBIO,

Thanks for the advice.  I am thinking that I am going to start over on the engine servo linkages and alignment.
I have removed the boiler and engine from the hull, and will run some more test runs, looking at the servo speed
and throw distances.  I will also look at the alignment with the prop shaft, it looks real close, but maybe it can be better.

At the same time I am going to start on the paneling and bulkheads.

I have two other boats running on the same fuel mixture.  Both run great at this altitude. So looking at how the fuel may be
delivered, clogged jets, or temp may be something to look at. The servo motion and speed seem too jerky, that sudden in-rush of
steam may be pegging the slidevalve like KBIO said.  So - back to the drawing board.


Thanks for responding,
This is why I post here.

Regards to all,
Jim Pope
Denver,CO
USA
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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2017, 11:01:48 am »

Hi Jim from my own past experience and others on this forum have agreed that ceramic burners on horizontal boilers do not supply anywhere near the energy of a gauze type flame burner ,something like sitting in front of the fire compared to being actually in the fire as most horizontal boilers have cross tubes that need plenty of heat.
Ceramics are fine on vertical boilers as the heat rises thru the tubes and further helped by the exhaust draft.
Your steam plant looks great and don't know if you have run your engine in yet so perhaps let run some more before attempting adjustments,would also consider a small flywheel which I don't think would be out of place keep up the great work
cheers
John
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Re: MH&B Topaz Build -
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2017, 03:21:38 am »

Thanks again for all the advice.

I went back to basics, and pulled the engine out of the hull.
Then I ran it again, and this time I paid greater attention to
the steam valve. 

Turns out that the critical angles are less than 45degrees.
More like about 30.  So with such a short throw, my servo
must move in a slower, steadier motion. 

As it was in the earlier movie clip, the servo was moving thru the
range of control in about 3 clicks of the joystick - way too fast.

So I'll rework the control program to slow it all down to give greater
control.

As to the pressure issues - I may have been overfilling and there was not enough
headspace to build up pressure.  The top of the sight glass is right at the top of the boiler
and unless you stop at about 7/8 full, there is just too much.

So, more tests and trial runs to come.


Thanks for reading,
Jim Pope

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