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[tonyH]

Hi,

I'm finishing the detailing of a US Naval vessel from WW2. The particular vessel spent most of her life on escort duties between Brazil and the West Indies. I.e. mostly warm.
Can anyone advise whether the blue winter/white summer regulation applied or did the regulation take regard of the local climate?
Thanks

Tony

[TailUK]

I'll assume that you are talking about uniform colours.  Officers would be wearing Khaki winter or summer and other ranks would be wearing working rig while on duty.  This would be dark blue trousers and a light blue shirt.  A dark blue jacket could be worn and oilskins if necessary. 
Try catching the movie "The Enemy Below"  which is about a Destroyer Escort (DE) in the tropics.

[tonyH]

Cheers Tail, and it is the uniforms I was trying to get sorted, but the khaki bit is where I got confused. I've now discovered that
US Navy regs of 31st May 1941, i.e. before Pearl Harbor only lists white or blue dress rig AND working rig for enlisted men.
Selection was down to the senior officer present "having due regard to duty and the state and variation of the weather"
The only khaki is for officers and NCOs working rig whilst at other times they could be wearing blue or white.
I've seen so many variations in films that I'd lost the plot a bit.
Thanks again.
Tony

[TailUK]

Hope this helps!

[tonyH]

Cheers for that. The officers and PO's are fine, well almost for the PO's, but it's the blues for the seamen that's the problem. I've attached a photo of the actual vessel with crew in white undress. The 1941 regs give blue and white working rig for PO's and enlisted men as being the same as undress but " old clothes suitable to the occasion" Chapter 4 Ref.4-7 for CPO's and Chapter 5 Refs. 5-10, 5-12 for enlisted.
I know that this is all a bit unreal and I'd assumed that the white undress was probably for entering or leaving harbor but the photo got me reaching for the can of white primer!

 

[TailUK]

Given how "tiddly" she looks I'd say leaving harbour, you can almost smell the fresh paint.  It might be helpful to know what boat you're modelling and if you want her to look "ceremonial" or "working"

[tonyH]

That's what led me to the question. USS Spry (for that is she) was overhauled and converted in Boston in June/July 1942
Photo was taken in June 44 after she'd spent a nearly 2 years between Trinidad, Guantanamo and Recife in Brazil. She was overhauled in June 1944 in Charleston and then went up to the north between Newfoundland, Greenland and Iceland.
Camouflage in the picture is Ms16 as attachment so is Ms16 a disruptive pattern for northern or southern waters?
I'm still looking for earlier/later photos to see what, if any, change to the paint job had occurred. The only definitive bit I've found is a short bit of film of her on fire in Recife. No explanation given because no sound.

[TailUK]

I can recommend the following two books.  Measure 16 was part of what was known as The Thayer System.  Ms16 was designed for North Atlantic and North Pacific.  I've attach some extracts from the books recommended.  I had to post them as jpegs as I couldn't separate them from the PDF. The first is from the Hreachmack book and the other from Walkowiak.


 P. Hreachmack, The painter's guide to World War Two

T. Walkowiak U.S. Navy Camouflage of WW2 Era

[tonyH]

That's great Tail, since it confirms that (a) Measure 16 is best in the north and, therefore, the photo is post overhaul. Blue would therefore be order of the day from then on and the whites in the photo are due to a temporary situation.
Just as a matter of interest, I've attached a pic of USS Tenacity. She followed virtually the same duty schedule as Spry and wore Ms16 in 1944. The photo was taken in 1942 when she wore Ms12 and served in the Brazil/Cuba/Trinidad area.

Many thanks

Tony

[Akira]

I agree with Tony. The uniforms would have been the "uniform of the day" and it would have changed with the ship's location. Also, the "clean" whites were only worn "in harbor" so to speak.  At sea they were often dyed with coffee to dull them down.
All that aside, a really interesting subject. I am working on a USN icebreaker in the same time frame and camo scheme.
BYW the camo really does work. I am in Maine and on early morning, foggy runs, my ship disappears, completely. Good thing for a small pond.
Jonathan

[tonyH]

This is what they're for. Got to finish the rigging and some aerials etc. but a crew should help a lot.
Thanks to Tail and Akira for the input.

[TailUK]

Very spry!  Is that the Matchbox/Revell or the 1/48th scale version?

[tonyH]

It's one of the Matchbox/Revell ones from about 15 years ago and converted a couple of years ago. I'm surprised that there don't seem to be many rebuilt this way since the only one I could find on line was from John Haynes.

[Akira]

A really beautiful job!