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Author Topic: HMS Agincourt build project  (Read 46869 times)

raflaunches

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #550 on: May 08, 2018, 08:17:52 PM »

I think that every modeller has had similar problems- a few years ago I was building a model of HMS Coventry (C-class AA cruiser) and I took it into my barracks through a set of double doors. It got caught by one set of doors spinning it from my hands and the entire Model tumbled on to the floor. The Modelís superstructure had to be rebuilt again and a crack in the hull repaired. I learnt a second time later in the year the hard way when a gust of wind at Deans Marine open weekend blew it off the table!!!


I think youíre doing an excellent job- Iím looking forward to seeing the model at the end of the month.


Dreadnought was completed so quickly because the RN were very sneaky and had much of the hull plating pre-made in advance.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #551 on: May 08, 2018, 11:02:47 PM »


I imagine having the little terrier Jackie at the builder's heels daily helped keep minds focussed! Also, Pompey was considered a fast builder of ships.


Anyhow, Its good to see that your progress albeit threatened by a mishap is going well. The turrets and their systems all look good. Don't forget to have a cuppa at regular intervals to keep match fit  :-))
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #552 on: May 09, 2018, 09:08:20 AM »

I seem to recall that Portsmouth had been reorganised a few years earlier by Fisher so it was a very efficient yard. Also extensive efforts were made to use standard sized plates and indeed they did stockpile material in advance. I seem to recall they also "borrowed" some turrets from the Lord Nelson class to speed construction.

The fast construction was also a huge credit on the project managers at Portsmouth and the large workforce.

In addition in introducing a new design which had the potential to revolutionise all battleship construction to a degree it made obsolete all the other battleships (not actually true) so speed of construction was important to demonstrate to the world that we could out build any other nation so it was also a very strong political statement. The fact that it all worked so well was a tremendous achievement for all concerned.

It was very important development and until Dreadnought had undergone trials the RN could not lay down any more battleships.

The pre dreadnoughts were still very powerful ships and other than at long range Dreadnought would have been in trouble with a Lord Nelson at medium ranges, which were typical in the North Sea, as Lord nelson was much better protected and could fire a nine gun broadside as opposed to Dreadnoughts 8 guns (the 9.2" weapon on LN was a main armament weapon and was quite capable of penetrating thick armour at the 6,000 yard range envisaged at the time.

With the development of long range fire and the associated fire control equipment which was just perfected by WW1 the Dreadnoughts really came into their own, which was the plan!

I find it a fascinating period of history.

Cheers

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #553 on: May 09, 2018, 02:45:06 PM »

At some point it would be great to see photos of your amazing HMS Lord Nelson on Mayhem, especially the beautiful but complex watchmaking gear that mover the turrets.

Lord Nelson was almost a Dreadnaught, the only problem was in differentially spotting the 9.2 and 12 inch shells and telling which was which for rangefinding purposes, especially at longer ranges.

Agincourt did not even have a Dreyer Fire Control Table system at Jutland.  I am amazed how ships could hit anything under those conditions. 
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #554 on: May 09, 2018, 03:09:11 PM »

The Dreyer fire control table was linked into director firing which was being fitted throughout the fleet. I think only Agincourt at Erin didn't have it by the time of Jutland.

Individual gun laying was still very effective and in certain conditions could even be more effective when rate of fire is considered as the faster gun crews could fire more shots but with director firing had to wait for the slowest.

The well known trials between Orion and Thunderer were not really as conclusive as has been portrayed. Director firing was significantly better under difficult conditions but individual fire was still effective. Falklands demonstrated this as whilst the pictures show the director tower on Invincible is was not yet connected.

On another thread I challenged the statements about Invincible and Inflexible's shooting as they hit the German ships at least 45 times and in turn were hit 25 times and whilst most hits were at lesser range they disabled the German ships at long range! 25 hits vs 45 hits despite the Germans being crack gunnery ships? A bit of Fisher spite I think!

Before radar a key consideration was the light gauge for long range fire.

Cheers

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build - LED's
« Reply #555 on: May 10, 2018, 09:33:36 AM »

LED's

Wiring the LED's for the three non firing turrets done.  There are two LED's in each, wired in parallel.
A plastic clip glued to the ply to retain the wiring.



My temperature controlled solder station decided to fail during this.  Bit not heating.  Luckily I had an old fashioned soldering iron as a backup.

Next to do are the turret base cylinders for the above.  Getting there, slowly.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #556 on: May 10, 2018, 11:39:05 AM »


Typical isn't it  >:-o They never fail when you have loads of time  >>:-(


Lovely job  :-))
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build - Non firing turrets
« Reply #557 on: May 10, 2018, 09:16:21 PM »

Other Turret Mountings

Three non-firing turret mountings were next to be built.  76mm precision ABS extrusion from Plastruct.  Flanged end caps in 0.5 and 1.5mm Plasticard.  Plustruct tubes used to route the LED wires through the barbettes.
Special thanks to Geoff for turning up three more flanged bosses for stepper motors mounting, as per the mountings on his firing turret assemblies.



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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build - Turrets mounting
« Reply #558 on: May 15, 2018, 03:38:26 PM »

Wicksteed  T-10

Two days to charge up the seven new 12V batteries, one at a time.  Four for the firing turrets, then one in each hull half for the electronics, plus the big main propulsion battery aft. 

Mounting the turrets

Everything has to be dry assembled before gluing the fixed outer barbette tubes into the deck panels, because after that things get more difficult to work on.  A slight delay to order shorter stepper shaft screws as wiring could possibly snag as the turret rotates.  Keeping the cap heads close to the mounting boss.
One thing I cannot check is the actual rotation as the stepper motors can only be operated by the TARGET electronics. 

Outer barbettes now fixed in place.  Turrets with rotating inner barbettes lowered into place.



Next is underside view, showing the stepper motors, support brackets, and loads of wiring to connect to the Arduino boxes next week.



Still not had the opportunity to fit the batteries and show Agincourt some water.  Waiting for a puncture repair kit for the kids ten foot paddling pool. 

Clock is ticking !!!!
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #559 on: May 15, 2018, 05:52:00 PM »

can't wait to see this in the flesh. last time i saw it was at deans last year!   or was it at wicksteed when Ron was sneaking round bushes with a 7ft hull!
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Klunk

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #560 on: May 15, 2018, 05:52:49 PM »

get scabs from a cycle shop for the pool bob.
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #561 on: May 15, 2018, 07:45:25 PM »

can't wait to see this in the flesh. last time i saw it was at deans last year!   or was it at wicksteed when Ron was sneaking round bushes with a 7ft hull!

It was indeed Wicksted last year when Ron Dean sneaked in the 7 foot hull, and we filled it with 29 kg of ballast.  A couple of months later I went to Peterborough to cut it in half so I could bring it home.   The pool puncture needs a BIG patch before I can ballast test the hull.

I would like to give special thanks to Geoff and C-3PO for their appreciated work in helping me realise a really crazy project. 

PS:  Six of the seven turrets now mounted.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #562 on: May 15, 2018, 10:34:22 PM »

Don't do yourself a mischief pumping that pool up once you have patched it Bob  ;) The turrets on their decks are looking brilliant.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #563 on: May 15, 2018, 10:55:20 PM »

Standing back, this project is a brilliant collaborative effort and something which I think takes model boating into new territory. All concerned are to be very much congratulated. Building large warship models will never be the same again.

Great achievement!

Colin
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Richelieu

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #564 on: May 16, 2018, 07:18:04 AM »

Hello Bob,
as a fellow Battleship builder, I must say, What a magnificent ship! I went through as many pages of this thread but I still have many to look at...
I am really interested in the way you motorized your turrets. I was considering the same sort of system for my turrets on Richelieu, until I got lazy and went the high torque servos route  {:-{.
Your gun "firing" system is amazing. I probably missed the information, but how are you going to simulate the noise of a gun discharge?
I went the pyrotechnic route which made everything a lot simpler (this being said this is my first RC scratch built ship and I had zero experience when I started it  :embarrassed:).
Again, what a superb ship you are building, and I can't wait to follow your progress.

Cheers

Serge
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C-3PO

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #565 on: May 16, 2018, 07:38:43 AM »

Hello Serge,

I hope Bob won't mind me stepping in one one aspect of your post.

Quote
I probably missed the information, but how are you going to simulate the noise of a gun discharge?

Bob and I have a plan for the gun discharge noise but until after the 27th May (Model Boat Mayhem Weekend @ Wicksteed Park 26/27th May) - our plans remain "under wraps"

C-3PO
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Richelieu

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #566 on: May 16, 2018, 07:42:36 AM »

Hello Serge,

I hope Bob won't mind me stepping in one one aspect of your post.

Bob and I have a plan for the gun discharge noise but until after the 27th May (Model Boat Mayhem Weekend @ Wicksteed Park 26/27th May) - our plans remain "under wraps"

C-3PO

Haaa... Thx C-3PO. Can't wait to see what you guys come up with. You're going to need some strong bangs for sure!

Cheers

Serge
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #567 on: May 16, 2018, 11:25:03 AM »

Hello Serge,

Many thanks for your kind words.  I have been following your amazing Richelieu build.
Beautiful detail work.  Lovely build pictures.  Very impressive detail.

We are using fog fluid with a pump and thermistor heating element.  Using pyrotechnics like yours is very difficult in England as you need special licences to store and fire pyrotechnic materials.
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #568 on: May 16, 2018, 11:36:28 AM »

Hello Serge,

Many thanks for your kind words.  I have been following your amazing Richelieu build.
Beautiful detail work.  Lovely build pictures.  Very impressive detail.

We are using fog fluid with a pump and thermistor heating element.  Using pyrotechnics like yours is very difficult in England as you need special licences to store and fire pyrotechnic materials.

Hello Bob,
hmmm, it's just like what I remembered from my stay in Scotland... Mind you, I think it's the same in France, but, since we can still use firecrackers, I am taking the "liberty"!  ok2

Cheers

Serge
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derekwarner_decoy

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #569 on: May 17, 2018, 12:29:38 AM »

.....''Bob and I have a plan for the gun discharge noise" ....

OK Guys.....does the scale of the vessel represent the scale reduction in sound pressure level?

Sound is 3D, so the actual SPL x by the cube root of scale = scale SPL...is this how you see [hear] it?

Derek

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Re: HMS Agincourt build - Computer racks
« Reply #570 on: May 17, 2018, 08:54:55 AM »

Wicksteed  T-9

Almost into the last week.  Not been able to ballast check the hull with batteries in yet.  Lots of wiring parts from Comp Shop due shortly.  Currently working on ten computer racks.

Computer Racks

There will be lots of 100 x 75 x 17mm deep boxes containing the special Arduino boards, each one programmed specifically for its unique location.  I made up ten support brackets from 2mm ply and Plastruct angle.  One for each turret, plus MCU Master and MCU Slave units.  These to be fixed by screws close alongside the barbettes so deck assemblies can be removed complete, with minimum interconnecting wiring between the deck assemblies.
Picture below shows a typical Arduino board mounting. There are other boxes for electronic compass etc but these will be sited on test.



Power Wiring

I really dislike keep pulling off terminals to charge batteries.  Also I need to be able to power up the system in a defined sequence.  So each battery will have a mini-panel with C/O switch and charging sockets, plus fuse of course.  With the switch in one position power goes to the equipment.  In the other position power is disconnected and diverted to the charging sockets.  The big LiFePO4 battery has its own built in charging socket, battery status LEDís and clip in power connector.  Fuses are on the Distribution Board.

All power controls are accessible under one deck panel assembly in each hull half.

PS Derek:  We have a sound but Cunning Plan.
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #571 on: May 17, 2018, 11:21:23 AM »

.....''Bob and I have a plan for the gun discharge noise" ....

OK Guys.....does the scale of the vessel represent the scale reduction in sound pressure level?

Sound is 3D, so the actual SPL x by the cube root of scale = scale SPL...is this how you see [hear] it?

Derek
Derek - Not sure I understand this - in laymans terms are you saying that we should scale the db of the sound in relation to the scale of the boat?
Our sound might be heard the other side of the lake if we are lucky...
C-3PO
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #572 on: May 17, 2018, 11:36:58 AM »

This is not my field, but I'll chip in anyway. Ideally we want to replicate the sound of a battleship broadside which I think will prove very difficult due to the scale effect. It may be that a simple "boom" being a single drum strike may carry better across the water due to the nature of the actual sound wave particularly if enhances.

As example being years ago there were complaints that TV adverts were louder that the movie. Investigation revealed they were not louder but the loud component had been stretched to be a longer component. Simplistically I think most sound is in a curve/sine wave format but if square then you have the same loudness but over a longer period. I bet an analysis if a battleship firing would produce a very complex pattern so perhaps a simpler pattern would produce a better effect at the scale we are working.

Just random thoughts and I expect to be shot down over this so not sure it contributes anything.

Cheers

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #573 on: May 17, 2018, 01:10:39 PM »

In my opinion there are real differences between perceived scale and actual scale.
ie:  10mph at 1/96 is hurricane force, but because scale waves on a lake move differently 10mph becomes realistic sailing conditions.  The same way as perceived scale speed will generally be a little quicker than actual scale. You need a slight bow wave to make it look right.

Sound is difficult to generate on a model in a perceived accurate way.  It will not travel anyway near as far unless you have a speaker capable of pushing huge amounts of air.  We should hear what we expect to hear, without reducing frequency etc.  A suitably edited audio clip of actual gunfire from a battleship will sound that, what you would expect to hear, although diminished in range of how far it carries.
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #574 on: May 17, 2018, 01:18:51 PM »

 C-3PO & Bob....no, I do not know the answer either.......scale is a funny thing.......if you were to apply scale rotational speed for the turrets train.......the barrels would go zip..zip from side to side and look totally unrealistic so slow visual speed of train & elevation is needed...

[SPL is a log scale ....140dB may sound thirty x as loud as 110 dB]...so I am thinking that sound may be a unit of measurement that does not scale well and still provide an aural perception of accuracy

I am sure we have all seen & listened to video's of an Iowa Class Battleship fire their 16"guns {greater than 130 dB??} . Any sailor unfortunate to be on deck when these guns were fired ended up with permanently perforated ear drums

Maybe if it sounds loud and right ......it must be right :-))

Derek

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