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[JohnD]

This is a request for information to help with a model lifeboat project.

Background; I bought this one as a part-completed project some years ago and it has now made it to the head of the queue. It is supposed to be a one twelfth scale model of a 51 foot Barnett. (Stromness type) There is no indication which one.

The hull is made of wood, double-diagonal planked and looks good. It is solid and well made. It does not leak. The shape looks good and the sheer looks right.

It is definitely a Barnett, because the length is right. 51 inches dead on. But there are a few details that look odd.

First, it has scuppers fitted. They are nicely depicted but I am pretty sure they are wrong. As far as I know, Watson boats had scuppers while Barnett boats used relieving tubes. Secondly the rudder is not stern-hung but inset into the deadwood. Now all the photos of 51 foot Barnetts I have been able to find have stern-hung rudders. I know some contemporary Watson boats had rudders in the deadwood, as well as the early 52 foot Barnetts, but if there was a 51 foot Barnett with this type of rudder I have not been able to uncover it. I would be quite happy to remove the rudder and fill the deadwood in.

Other bits; it’s obviously intended as a working model, but there is a lot of internal detail as well. The survivors’ cabin is fitted out, as is the engine room. This has two quite good representations of marine engines in it, each with an electric motor concealed in the crankcase and driving a prop and shaft through a reduction gearbox. It is all beautifully made and does not work. Applying a battery to the leads produces a brief buzzing noise and that’s it. To complete an accurate depiction of the engine room would mean adding a lot of pipework and detail. I once did a coastal delivery passage on a 52 foot Barnett and there is not much spare room in there! So I may end up regretfully dismantling the engine room and installing a couple of low-drain 545 motors. Other detail may be retained. For instance, the scuttles over the propellors work. There are little hatches that open.

The other thing that may make it necessary to dismantle is that she is heavy. She already floats down to her marks and that is before adding detail, batteries, etc. Even allowing for a heavily-constructed wooden hull (and it really is a beautiful job) there must be some lead under the cabin soles. Some of it has to come out.

The hull is very nicely decked with individually laid planks. The forward shelter is in place. The aft (main) shelter exists but is in poor condition and will have to be re-made. There is a funnel but that’s all for detail parts. The casing over the engine room has yet to be made.

I have two references; Stephen Fry and Nicholas Leach’s “RNLI Motor Lifeboats”. The net has yielded a few photos of full-sized boats plus a wonderful series showing Neil’s construction sequence on his model. Proper job and better than anything I am likely to achieve! As for the rest of it, three questions, please…

1) Plans… Are these still obtainable from the RNLI or have they gone to the LBES? Also are they of generic boats or a specific ON? The Stornoway boat, ON718, appeals, because I once lived for a year in Stornoway harbour aboard a sailing boat, but honestly any boat I could find enough specific detail of would do. They were all a bit different, as I am sure you know.

2) Other written references… any particular books I should chase up?

3) Anything else I need to know?

Obviously, I am not asking people to do my research for me, but if you could point me in some useful directions where I can start digging, I would be extremely grateful.

Finally photos… I can take some of the model as it stands and upload them if anyone is interested, but quite honestly at the moment the model does not look like anything much.

[Duncan]

Hi John,


According to Barnett's book, Modern Motor Lifeboats, 1933, all classes at that time had changed to scupper plates (side  relieving-valves he calls them) with a normal deck camber instead of the reverse camber deck with draining relieving tubes. You should be aware there was more than one version of scupper plates. I find the early single plates can be hard to spot on the old black and white photos. In Leach's book you will see that the inset rudder classes are post WW2.

Thus, my initial thoughts are that your model is a late 51ft Barnett, most probably the 1949  Southern Africa (ON860) stationed at Dover. Lifeboat design tended to evolve in those days. Perhaps, Barnett tried some new ideas on the the old 51ft Barnett design before a major redesign to produce the 52ft Barnett. If it was my model, I would try to track down some photos and/or station histories to positively match your model to a specific prototype. Also do you know the history of the model as it appears to be made by someone with good access to the prototype.

The RNLI let the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich have all their old plans. They will charge you for research as well as for each reproduced plan sheet. Thus the need to know which lifeboat you are requesting.

Someone at the LBES or the Historic Lifeboat Collection at Chatham maybe able to help you in your research as well. Photos would make it easier.

I've had a thought about your internal details: perhaps they could be carefully removed and displayed on a separate stand. The two together could be delightful.

Hope this helps
Duncan

[Duncan]

Just noticed, this thread maybe better placed in the lifeboat section.

[JohnD]

Duncan,

Thank you very much for your reply. Yes, it is very helpful. Also just slightly annoying (I hasten to add, not your fault at all)... because I have done bits of research into lifeboats from time to time and just when I think I've got it nailed down there's another variation! Always.

You are of course quite right. A bit of research into Google Images produced a picture of ON860 and indeed she does have side scuppers. Unmistakably. The model's side scuppers are indeed a single plate pattern, just as you describe. I must admit reverse camber decks is a new one on me. Presumably a boat built with them would not be modified to normal camber, as the reconstruction involved would be extremely expensive. So if side scuppers appear on late boats of the 51 foot Stromness type, it does indeed seem possible you are perfectly correct and Barnett was experimenting with ideas before developing the 52 foot boats.

Good to know where the old RNLI plans are now. I had been told several different things. Yes, I know Greenwich charge, but they are reasonably efficient.

I don't know anything about the model's history and have no obvious way of finding out. But I can take a set of photos, post them here and see if anyone knows. Separate display of the model's internal fittings is a very good idea. As you say, quite delightful. Alternatively if I strip the engines down, clean and reassemble I might get it to run as it is. Not sure how much power would be produced, but it's worth a try before doing anything too radical in the "strip and rebuild" line.

Moving this thread to the lifeboats section ideed looks like the obvious and logical thing to do. But help (!)... where is the lifeboats section? I'm a complete novice here, in fact joined in order to get some help with this research and don't know my way around yet.

Best wishes,

John

[Capt Podge]

Hello John and welcome aboard. That's a very interesting subject you're tackling.

The Lifeboat section is in Dry Dock/Shipyard: Builds & Questions - 3rd item down. Enjoy.

Regards,

Ray.

[JohnD]

Ray,

Yes, of course. Silly of me not to spot it. How do we get the thread moved over? Do we ask the Mods?

Thanks,

John

[Capt Podge]

How do we get the thread moved over? Do we ask the Mods?

Thanks,

John

Yep, one of the moderators will pick it up in due course.

Regards,

Ray.

[Duncan]

Hi John


My understanding of Reverse Camber is the deck profile across the boat is a shallow U shape and thus lower in the centre so that water drains from the deck edge and down the relieving valves near the centre. The valves have a ball float to stop water entering up the tubes. This drainage method dates back to the days of pulling and sailing lifeboats.


I've sent you a PM (Personal Message) with some contact details that may help you.


Best wishes
Duncan

[JohnD]

Duncan,

Reverse camber would indeed be just as you describe. I must admit I had never heard of it before. To me it would look intuitively "wrong", as every boat I have ever known or sailed on has had conventionally cambered decks. Learn something new every day! A boat built like that could only be converted to conventional camber with very extensive reconstruction, so I'd guess some were built one way and some the other.

I have a series of photos of a model 51 foot Barnett with conventional camber and relieving tubes. Not sure about that.

The book you mentioned, Barnett's "Modern Motor Lifeboats" seems to be my next stop. The first copy I found was priced very high, but a bit of digging uncovered various slightly tatty reading copies for sale at quite affordable prices. I should also write to the Dover station, and since ON860 is still in existence and has apparently returned to UK waters, I might try to find out where she is based and if the current owners would allow a visit for photographs, etc. Obviously, since she was sold out of service, various fittings may have been changed, but if the photo online is anything to go by, she is still in fairly original condition.

Thank you again for all your help. It is extremely valuable and much appreciated.

Best wishes,

John

[Charlie]

Hi John,
You may want to get hold of a copy of 'Life-Boat Design and Development' by Eric Fry (1975). This contains a full description of the 51' Barnett Class, and several drawings. I did find this photo of RNLB Southern Africa online, no sign of any Reverse camber here:)


Charlie

[JohnD]

Charlie,

Thank you. I've had the book on my shelves for some years now, but in my original post I called him "Stephen Fry". Don't know what happened there, must have been having a senior moment.

The photo is excellent. A lovely deck view. Thank you for that. Another one for the research file.

RNLB Southern Africa (ON860) was the last 51 foot Barnett built. As Duncan has pointed out, Barnett changed the design to incorporate side scuppers, which are visible in the picture I found of her. So she would have had no reason for reverse cambered decks, which your photo definitely confirms. As she is still afloat, I'd love to have a look at her.

This really is an extremely helpful Forum. Thank you!

Best wishes,

John

[BFSMP]

hi JohnD,


I asked neil this evening where he got his plans for his Barnett that he built on here and elsewhere.


The national maritime museum have numerous plans of original 51' boats, and they will look through the archives for your specific boat, but they do charge for a search, he told me.But it is a thorough search and then they send you a list of the plans appertaining to your boat in question.
sadly though, if they don't find your boat, they still charge you, and that costs around £20.00p from memory he said.


Jim.

[derekwarner]

Good morning to ya Jim

.....this Neil chap you refer to seems to be a wealth of maritime or nautical information ....does he have a history in the ship building industry?

Now I know Google suggests the following for the Barnett/Stormness Class.....

60 ft:2 x 80 bhp D.E. 6-cyl. petrol
51 ft: 2 x 60 bhp Weyburn CE6 6-cyl. petrol
52 ft Mk. I: 2 x 60 bhp Ferry VE6 6-cyl. diesel
52 ft Mk. II: 2 x 72 bhp Gardner 6LW 6cyl. diesel


However the particular build of vessel has a very different funnel.......I don't understand why the exhaust trunking needs to be of such diameter & is this just a Bowler Top Cap to keep the rain out or could this have been the forerunner and steam powered?....& that Mr Google forgot to mention?

Possibly do ya think this Neil fella may shed some light 

Derek

[BFSMP]

I wouldn't have a clue myself, Derek, but will ask him next time I speak to him.


of to bed now.......past the witching hour


Jim.

[JohnD]

Okay, thank you everyone, now I'm making real progress, in no small measure due to everyone's help. Thank you all.

I think I have identified the boat the model is based on; ON776 "The Rankin", built in 1935 and served at Aith in the Shetlands from 1935 to 1961, thereafter in the reserve until 1969 and sold in 1970, still in existence.

Here is my reasoning:

Nicholas Leach in "RNLI Motor Lifeboats" supplies a diagram of a 51 foot Barnett with a stern-hung rudder and offers no comment on other arrangements. But Eric Fry (thank you Charlie for sending me back to take a closer look) says "The type of rudder varied as between individual boats, some having the standard type which could be triced up when necessary, while in others the rudder was set into the deadwood." He also offers plans of a boat with the rudder set into the deadwood. So the search was on for a boat which had a rudder set into the deadwood and which had single plate scuppers. Duncan, thank you for alerting me to the fact that these were fitted to some 51 foot Barnetts; also that they can be difficult to pick out of photographs so I would be looking for something very small and unobtrusive.

The great majority of pictures of 51 foot Barnetts I could find online show stern hung rudders. Most shots are taken from the bow, but even so, the steering cover box can very often be made out. It's a hefty item and quite unmistakeable! So far I have managed to find pictures of two boats without the steering cover box; ON 860, "Southern Africa", the last boat built, and ON 776, "The Rankin", the penultimate boat. Now this model cannot be of ON 860 "Southern Africa", because she had no forward shelter and a clear foredeck, but ON 776, "The Rankin" began to look like a possibility. Then close examination of a photo, using digital magic like playing with the colour balance and increasing contrast, revealed the unmistakable outline of a single plate scupper. So "The Rankin" it is and I can order a set of plans for her with a fair degree of confidence now. Thank you for bringing me up to speed and telling me where the plans are held now. I could NOT have done any of this without all the help and encouragement I have received.

As for the origins of this model, there's a fascinating possibility in this forum, from 2011.

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=34603.0

This shows a 51 foot Barnett model, built plank on frame and, like mine, with engine room detail. Now it could be the same model, except that there are important details which are different. But on the other hand, the odds against there being two such models seem considerable. Either mine has been modified in the course of its life, which is possible; or it was a second build, inspired by the first but never completed.

I'm attaching a bunch of pictures of my model as it stands; of the damaged main shelter (someone, not me, has tried to break out much of the internal structure, heaven knows why), of the detail parts that exist and ALSO a couple from that post of 2011, including an enlargement of the engine room detail for purposes of comparison. The engines look as if it might be just possible to insert a modern 380 type into them in place of the original motors which seem defunct, in which case it might be possible to sail her without having to radically alter the interior.

That's about it; except to add that this "reverse deck camber" thing on boats with relieving tubes instead of scuppers seems to be a fascinating red herring. Photos of ON733 "Mary Stanford" returned to Ballycotton for restoration show her with no side scuppers (so presumably with relieving tubes) but with what are quite definitely conventionally cambered decks.

All for now and again, thank you all for your invaluable help.

John

[BFSMP]

what a beautiful looking model. I know someone who would love to get their hands on that model, without any shadow of doubt.


Jim.

[furball]

Now that's very interesting...


I concur that it's The Rankin, but I don't *think* that it's my mother's model - from what I can see of the framing in the cockpit, it looks a little thicker, and the original model never had a detailed interior, they had to get a huge pair of accumulators in there to power it.


What are the shelters made of? The originals were layers of gum strip paper laid over a mould, but much could have have changed in the nearly 70 years since it was made.


Cheers


Lance

[JohnD]

Lance,

Yes, I got the impression the framing was a little heavier. Shelters are made of strips of thin mahogany veneer, so are different. Paper strip over a mould is a real good 1950s technique and can work very well; I remember doing some years ago to produce a small hull in the pre-GRP era.So this is probably not the same boat, then. Very similar, though.

Best wishes,

John

[JohnD]

Lance|:

A few afterthoughts:

First it is difficult to be sure of something like the dimensions of framing from a photograph. So it is interesting your eye tells you the same as mine tells me.

Secondly it is very reassuring that you also identify her as the same boat. Nice cross-check, thanks.

Thirdly battery boxes are the sort of thing that might be rebuilt as battery technology improves, but as she stands there are no obvious battery compartments at all. The wing compartments each side of the engine room, which in the real boat would be filled with air cases, are accessible from the cockpit area and it might be possible to slide a "stick" of nimh cells in there on each side, one for each motor. Have to try it and see.

Fourthly while the engines are slightly different; I can see what looks like an air intake stack with a filter pan on top of it on both engines in your mother's model and there is nothing like that on mine nor any indication it was ever fitted; I get a very strong impression that the basic engine casting is the same. So it seems that back in the 1950s somebody was making little plastic cast marine diesels with electric motors in them. They definitely look as if they were cast using a mass-production technique, or at the very least a short-run casting technique. I wonder who was making them?

All for the moment,

J

[spongie]

That's about it; except to add that this "reverse deck camber" thing on boats with relieving tubes instead of scuppers seems to be a fascinating red herring. Photos of ON733 "Mary Stanford" returned to Ballycotton for restoration show her with no side scuppers (so presumably with relieving tubes) but with what are quite definitely conventionally cambered decks.

All for now and again, thank you all for your invaluable help.

John

Typically it would only be the internal decks that would have a reverse camber to encourage water to flow down the relieving tubes, the main deck would still have a "conventional" camber to allow water to run off overboard.

[JohnD]

Okay, that makes complete sense. Thank you for the clarification.

[BFSMP]

if you look at reply 702 on page 29 of neil's 3 lifeboat builds you'll see the positions for most of the water tube releases in the floor of the aft cockpit of the Mary Stanford.


Jim.

[furball]

Here's my (nearly completed) version...







The plans for The Rankin are available from the NMM, I've got a set, but they're now very tatty.


When mum gets back from gadding about Kent on the bus, I'll ask her about the motors. She used to work for Archie Stewart-Reidpath, who made 00 locomotives back in the day, so they may well have sold these commercially.


Cheers

[JohnD]

Wow. Just wow! Now that is a real proper job. Quite quite magnificent.

[furball]

Just spoken to her, and they weren't made by Stewart-Reidpath, but they bought them, but she can't remember where from now, so it's possible they came from the same place.


Interestingly, the rear canopy, and main bulkhead you have are incorrect for The Rankin - they've been copied from one of the earlier 51 footers.



Lance