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Author Topic: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.  (Read 5019 times)

IanJ

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Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« on: July 21, 2017, 07:54:16 pm »

I have Stuart's D10 that I would like to put into a boat. I understand that the D10 is quite powerful engine and can consume a fair amount of steam. As I don't want to build anything too big, so am seeking advice on what is the smallest boat, boiler combination for D10? An open launch type vessel appeals as I would like see all of mechanism etc.


Ian
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rhavrane

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2017, 08:27:46 pm »

Bonjour Ian,
Yes, a D10 is a very powerful machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPPux5exRNE and you can easily install it in a small boat with a small boiler (125 x 200 mm in Jan) as soon as it has a coupled feed pump https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbvYKKf8tJE
with a pump, the important thing is not the size of the boiler but the power of its torch
To my opinion, it is a "mut have" in a collection and I let you imagine your happyness when it pulls you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l_-js-fX_I 
I confess that you can also be pulled by a smaller machine (here DN15 - 12,68 cm3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTP8Fp7GoMo but a D10... is a D10  O0
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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jpdenver

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2017, 10:02:00 pm »

BTW

I just posted a D10 feed pump in the sales section.

Regards,
JPDenver
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IanJ

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2017, 12:24:28 pm »

Bonjour Raphael,


Your boats and videos are splendid and it clearly demonstrates the power of engines such as the Stuart D10. If I understand you correctly it is possible to run a D10 using a relatively small boiler if it is fitted with a powerful burner and water is constantly supplied by a boiler feed pump. I assume the difficulty is precisely adjusting out-put of the pump to match the consumption rate of the boiler. Also, is there need for boiler feed water to be supplied via a heater.


Ian
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rhavrane

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2017, 03:20:26 pm »

Bonjour Ian,
Thank you for the videos, and you are absolutely right, water consumption must be adjusted, this is why you need to install a by-pass valve on your circuit. Note that the D10 pump is fitted for the machine, so I just open the pump to prime it, then I close it.
To heat the water, my solution is to enclose 1 meter of the water tube circuit in the oil separator. Not easy visible but you can see this system on my Reeves Warrior MK3 steam plant (with a red by-pass valve) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ-lbevCsX8

On this smaller engine, I have to accurately control the by pass valve because when clsed, the pump is to powerful because directly driven by the crank shaft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw7LilKb7uw

For information I have ordered to the French manufacturer JMC a 125 x 200 x 40 mm horizontal boiler with 14  8 mm water in pipes + 250 g/h torch for my next D10 + pump. A video for my tests when I get it ok2 [size=78%]  [/size]
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Raphaël
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IanJ

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2017, 05:10:31 pm »

Hi Raphael,


Thank you for explanation. That's a lot of pipe coiled up in the oil separator! I also note that boiler is fitted with gas regulator.


ian
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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2017, 07:19:09 pm »

Bonjour Ian,
You are not obliged to do the same installation. for my next project, I will try the water pipe rolled around the torch as it will be out of the boiler (To be efficient, the torch must be at 5 cm of the first water pipe, and my boiler will have helicoidal water pipes on all its length).   

For me, steam = gas regulator + RC sfaty gas valve (for security and comfort reasons) and... whistle because we talk about steam  ok2 
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Raphaël
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ooyah/2

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 10:03:53 am »

Raphael,


Don't wrap copper coil around the burner head as the intense heat from the burner will cause the copper flake on the inside of the pipe which will break off and get pumped into the boiler, some of these flakes will get caught in the Clack valve on the boiler making it ineffective.


Stay with making use of the oil separator with a coil inside to heat the boiler water feed it will be hot enough.


George.


The sketch of a water heater coil inside of an oil separator may be of interest to Ian and others new to steam plants. this need not be silver soldered as soft solder is enough, however Silver solder is prefered.
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rhavrane

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 08:56:29 pm »

Bonjour George,
Thank you for the drawing and thank you for the warning but I think I have not been accurate enough. The copper pipe will rolled around the body of the torch outside the boiler, not directly in contact with the fire and the pipe wil be full of water. I will use a 4 mm pipe, which let a lot of room to the water. In this configuration, I think there is no heat enough to generate flake, would you agree with me ?
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Raphaël
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ooyah/2

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2017, 10:34:41 am »

Bonjour George,
Thank you for the drawing and thank you for the warning but I think I have not been accurate enough. The copper pipe will rolled around the body of the torch outside the boiler, not directly in contact with the fire and the pipe wil be full of water. I will use a 4 mm pipe, which let a lot of room to the water. In this configuration, I think there is no heat enough to generate flake, would you agree with me ?


Raphael,
I can only comment on what I have experienced in the past.


I machined a flame tube from a piece of Stainless steel tube down to a wall thickness of .025" thk and  from memory it was 1" dia.
I wrapped 5/32" copper pipe ( 4mm ) around the tube as a water heater, when the burner was lit the stainless tube glowed red as did the copper pipe,


I turned of the Gas and filled the boiler with water and proceeded to fire up the burner , when the boiler came to 60 p.s.i. I opened the water feed which was driven by a D10 engine, no water came from the water supply to the boiler, so after some consideration I fitted an over flow valve between the delivery side of the pump and the boiler Clack.


With the same proceedure the water feed was opened and the by pass was opened which produce a blast of steam from the over flow so it was obvious to me that the burner was producing too much heat to the water supply and the flame tube and the coil were glowing red, the overflow valve was closed but the pump refused to pass water to the boiler at 60 p.s.i.
On examination of the coil flakes of copper were clearly visable on the out side so it must have been flaking on the inside.


The copper coil was removed and when the water supply was fitted the pump had no problem on filling the boiler, unfortunately I have no pics of the installation.


So in conclusion, when the boiler was filled manually and the coil was empty it was that period that turned the water coil into a flash steam situation before the pump took over.
So my experiment with the coil around the burner was abandoned and I used the exhaust to heat the boiler feed water as per the sketch which I use to this day with no problem and it also means that I don't have to uncouple the water feed supply to fit a new gas bottle, I use camping gas bottles.


I see no reason why you should not do as you have suggested but make sure that there is water in the coil while you fire up to bring your boiler to W.P. and your burner may not be a powerful as mine with a No 10 jet


George.. 

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ooyah/2

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2017, 02:42:41 pm »

Raphael,


I have found the original flame tube made from St/St tube and machined to .025" thk wall, the I/D is 1"
You can see that burned end of the fire tube which turned red while in use.

George.
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rhavrane

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2017, 06:03:33 pm »

Bonjour George,
Thank you again for this accurate share of experience, this is that I appreciate in a discussion. My torch is quite smaller than yours but I understand that heating the pipe empty is not a good idea, so I will manage to find another way to gently heat the water,
I prefer a cold water to a coper flake  ok2
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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rhavrane

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2017, 07:05:08 pm »


Bonjour,
Here is the boiler on which I imagined I could roll the copper pipe on the black part which supports the torh:
                                                                         
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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IanJ

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2017, 04:15:00 pm »

Hi,


I have been following the discussion with great interest since the first post and I have further queries. I have found that by 'searching' past posts most questions have been answered.


I have desire to keep things small, so to that end I have obtained drawings for the Borderer and Marcher from Reeves. Both engines are smaller than the D10, the Marcher especially so given a bore of 7/16" (approx 11mm). Any views on hull sizes, boiler combinations for these engines would be welcomed, as would any observations on the engines themselves.


Ian
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rhavrane

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2017, 05:22:03 pm »

Bonjour Ian,
I just know the Warrior MK3 from Reeves which is an exact copy of the D10 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ-lbevCsX8
Is the "marcher" this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgENxDQ7TqQ and the "borderer" this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xS2bi-DhLQ ?
I am interested in having information, specifications and pictures about these models you mention because they are absolutely not common at all in France.
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Raphaël
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steamboatmodel

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2017, 05:33:06 pm »


Here is a link to Reeves engine page
http://www.ajreeves.com/stationary-engines.html
Regards,
Gerald.
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rhavrane

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2017, 05:40:12 pm »

Bonjour Gerald,
 :-))
Not obvious this site for me, it seems you have to buy machines by parts ? And no machined engines sold ?
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Raphaël
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IanJ

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2017, 06:35:04 pm »

Raphael,


Yes, the YouTube videos appear to show the engines.


Reeves sell drawings and castings. It is possible to buy only the drawings, you are also able buy individual castings or sets of castings. I understand some people prefer to make their engines entirely from bar stock, some will use a combination bar stock and some castings and some buy the completed casting set. In all cases however, an amount of bar stock and fixings will be needed to complete an engine. No machined parts or completed engines are available from Reeves. The Warrior does look very similar to a Stuart D10, although I note that Reeves do not list a drawing for the Warrior on their web-site.


Ian
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ooyah/2

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2017, 09:55:14 pm »

A full set of castings can be purchased from A.J.Reeves  as well as the drawing, Gerard has given the link to Reeves.
You will have to contact Reeves for the cost of the full set and the drawing.


Here are some pics to give the comparison between the Marcher and the TVR.  Marcher is 7/16" bore x 7/16" stroke and weighs 2 lbs. The Marcher can be either piston valve or slide valve. this is one that I have recently machined from a set of castings given to me.
TVR is 1/2" bore x 1/2" stroke and weighs 1 lb


Both are excellent engines.


George.
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IanJ

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2017, 12:25:58 pm »

Hello George,


Like the look of your Marcher,  I think it's going to be my next engine with the aim of matching it to suitable size boiler and hull of the open launch type. Any advice as to the combination will be appreciated form any quarter.


I see that your engine is a side valve version and that the Marcher employs stepped fork-ends that engage with the expansion link thereby avoiding the use of cranked rods as used on the D10. To my mind a more elegant solution to achieve the necessary alignment of the components. Nevertheless, I am considering building the piston valve version, have you any views/observations on the merits of slide valve to piston valve?


Nice looking boiler by the way.


Ian
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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2017, 12:35:13 pm »

Bonjour George,
Thanks for these picures and explanations.
Based on what I see, it seems that you could put much more boiler pipes in the central pipe of your boiler project. JMC creates a propeller shape by putting 8 mm tube every 2 mm ==> 16 in my 125 x 220 x 40 mm boiler for D10 to have a maximum of heating surface. The torch is 50 mm far from the first pipe. 
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Raphaël
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ooyah/2

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2017, 09:55:15 am »

Hello George,


Like the look of your Marcher,  I think it's going to be my next engine with the aim of matching it to suitable size boiler and hull of the open launch type. Any advice as to the combination will be appreciated form any quarter.


I see that your engine is a side valve version and that the Marcher employs stepped fork-ends that engage with the expansion link thereby avoiding the use of cranked rods as used on the D10. To my mind a more elegant solution to achieve the necessary alignment of the components. Nevertheless, I am considering building the piston valve version, have you any views/observations on the merits of slide valve to piston valve?


Nice looking boiler by the way.


Ian





Ian,
Firstly the slide valve engine is a better choice as the Piston valve one is difficult to get the Piston Valve steam tight.
Some years ago I built the bigger version (  Borderer )  from stock material and the only way to stop the steam leakage was to fit a small "O" ring to the bottom of the valve but there isn't enough room to do that in the Marcher.




The piston valve has the advantage of being able to forward and reverse the engine without the complications of Stevenson reverse linkage.


I do prefer the Stevenson,s reverse and have fitted it to all of the slide valve engines that I have made.


Pic of the Borderer built from stock material with reversing and speed control valve operated via 1- servo


George.
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IanJ

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2017, 12:53:40 pm »

George,


Thanks you for your very valid observations and I have since been studying the drawings in more detail. In the absence of any type of gland it's difficult to see how to avoid steam leaks given that even a 'tight fit' between the piston and valve body still has to have sufficient clearance to allow the piston to move. Hence your 'O' ring, solution. With respect to the Marcher; whilst it appears that the travel of the piston could accommodate  an 'O' ring of 1/16" cross section, its depth would break into the 5BA central hole. As an alternative, a 7BA BA thread may allow the fitting of a 'O' ring. Again, any observations would be welcomed. You may say; why bother, just go down the slide valve route and have done. Nevertheless, the reversing/control valve that the piston valve version allows still has some appeal. I may have a go at machining a piece of 1/4" rod byway of a trial.


Ian
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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2017, 08:47:44 pm »

Hi Ian,
Going by my memory the Borderer engine would have had a larger diameter of the piston valve than the Marcher so all good and well if you can get an "O" ring at the bottom of the valve to stop steam leaks, also I made a screw top on the valve box which meant that any leakage  would be directed into the exhaust so you may think of a method to do something similar that I did on my Borderer engine
( pic enclosed )


Looking at the Marcher drawing it has brought back to my mind that the shaft needs to be machined from a solid bar, look at the end view of the shaft on the drawing and you will see that the 1/4" dia big end journals over lap the main shaft of 1/4" dia.


 Now as I have never made a shaft from a solid bar but always fabricated them so I had to make the main shaft and journals 7/32" dia.
On the drawing you will see a 7/32" centre from the main shaft to the journals I made that dimension 7/32" + .010" which gave me .010" clearance to fabricate the shaft.
This I did by reducing the ends of the journals to  3/16" dia and spaced at 9/32" as per the drawing I then could glue the webs at the correct position with Loctite 603 and left over night to cure, once cured I drilled and reamed for taper pins thro' the webs and the 7/32" shaft with a smear of 603 and gently tapped in, then I could cut out the piece of the main shaft not required.


Pic of the shaft enclosed before the unwanted piece of the main shaft was removed and the other ready to assemble the C-Rod big ends.


I hope this helps


George.

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IanJ

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Re: Engine size; boiler, boat combination.
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2017, 06:52:30 pm »

hi George,


Your memory serves you right, the Borderer pistons are 5/16" and that of the Marcher are 1/4". My trial will hopefully demonstrate the feasibility of fitting an "O" ring.


With respect to the crankshaft; My first thought was to mount two discs, say 5/8" long the necessary distance apart to accommodate the main centre bearing and then machine the crank pins utilising two additional discs at either end having centres that match the crank pin centres. The aim was to reduce amount of machining. That was the plan, until I noticed the throw of 7/16" means that 1/4" crank pins overlap the main journals of 1/4" which prevents such an approach. So before I follow your method I am going to have a go at machine one from solid. I will post the results, if successful.


In the meantime, The photos that I have posted show a shaft for a Stuart Compound Twin that I machined from the 'lump' of material Stuarts provide in their kit.


Photo 1 shows what they provide. When it dawned on me the purpose of the two pieces at either end was to drill centres in order mount the shaft between centres the machining operation proved to be relatively straight forward, if not a little slow. The other photos show the progression to the final finished shaft.


Ian



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