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Author Topic: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale  (Read 3400 times)

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Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« on: August 14, 2017, 07:07:46 pm »

 Being new to this forum, and having said in my first post that I was going to build a model in 3D within my computer, I have changed my mind!

While experimenting with various 3D programs and getting to know DelftShip, I happened across a perfect set of plans for a Coaster of the 1950's, produced by a Polish shipyard, and very complete, however, I found that sitting in front of the computer all day was not good for my health therefore I have decided to build a rather large model of this 450Ton vessel to 1/8 scale.

This means she will be 17ft o/all and will be capable of carrying 4 people.
I thought it prudent to increase the beam and give her a little more freeboard fwd as I may well test her off our local beach.  The computer was invaluable in producing drawings to scale and the sections were then transferred to a 4ft x 4ft sheet of white faced hardboard.
There are 21 frames in total and the first five midships frames have been made today but they are not yet finished.
I was fortunate in finding several long lengths of steel RSJ which I have laid out as a building frame to ensure that the little vessel will be straight and true.

Writing this has reminded me that my camera is broken so I will have to buy another one so as to be able to post some photos and I think it will be good to record the build, as when I used to build large boats for a living, I was always too busy to take photos, something I have always regretted.

My wife has decided that as I now have a smile on my face,  :-)) that she is not too worried about the cost, but I am mindful of costs therefore building in softwood (the framing) yet intend to soak everything in Epoxy and coat the hull exterior with fine glass cloth so that the vessel will be well able to withstand our hot climate and likely some rough treatment.

I have some ideas as to the power plant but not yet finalised and I think I may well be able to produce a 3D 'walkthrough' of a typical engine room within my computer, so enjoying the best of both worlds.

Having read much on this forum, I realise that many of you would likely not consider my project to be a 'model', but my hands are too clumsy to handle small items and my eyes are not what they used to be, hence my rather large model that I shall enjoy seeing afloat in our swimming pool and possibly using off our local beach (on quiet days).  I think it is called ''the second childhood''. ;)

PS Should ballastanksian read this, my oldest cat was keeping a close watch on everything today from the comfort of her berth on the workshop windowsill. :}
 
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2017, 09:51:20 pm »


I am sorry if I sound remotely cynical, but I am not finding anything remotely real about this post.....a 17ft model that can take 4 people and sail off a beach, with RSJ's built in to it to keep it straight.........using hardboard as frames %% %%


are you going to use tissue paper as planking :D

I thought april 1st was months ago >:-o


Jim.
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2017, 10:28:17 pm »

I am sorry if I sound remotely cynical, but I am not finding anything remotely real about this post.....a 17ft model that can take 4 people and sail off a beach, with RSJ's built in to it to keep it straight.........using hardboard as frames %% %%


are you going to use tissue paper as planking :D

I thought april 1st was months ago >:-o


Jim.


To be fair, as I understand it the RSJs are just the building frame not a structural part of the hull and the hardboard is for lofting the frames not actually making them.  But a 17 foot boat for 4 people will need to be built as a full size boat not a scaled up model.  I wait in eager anticipation!


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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2017, 11:07:29 pm »

Yes Greg,

You are obviously a practical person who understood what I wrote.
I have spent the evening lofting the stem and stern profiles (on the white hardboard) ;) and the centreline will be built of 3ins x 2ins clean pine. Frames are being built from 1/2inch softwood and 1/2 inch ply.  I have not yet decided on the skin because there is a lot of shape and twist in the ends so I will cross that bridge when she is in frame. Modern materials make things easy these days and epoxy sheathing also gives enormous strength.

Although she will carry 4 people quite easily, I anticipate that 2 will be the norm and I have increased the beam and also the freeboard amidships but only a little so as not to be noticeable, otherwise all is to scale. There will also be 3 built in buoyancy tanks (at least) so she will also be unsinkable. But actually using her afloat is of secondary importance for I am hoping to build a model that will look like the real thing when photographed, and that will take some doing!
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2017, 09:17:12 am »

Looking forward to the photos. Hammer
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 05:17:16 pm »

I'm very interested in manned model boats -= but this project sounds very difficult.

At 17 feet long, it's huge and it's going to literally weigh a ton. How do you see the seating arrangement and what are you thinking about for structural materials? Wood? Fibreglass? Metal?

People put enormous point loads on a boat's structure (I'm about 90kg standing on about 1 sq ft area - so whatever I step on has to be really strong and whatever structure that it is glued to will have to be strongly built too).

Also, many model boats never get finished for various reasons - but a huge 'model' with a huge financial and time cost is very risky if you are a lone builder. Abandoning it half built will break your heart & bank account

Also, at this size, what kind of motor are you planning on? Electric? Petrol? Steam? Outboard?

How do you intend to move / store / launch & recover this enormous model?

As it will carry people, what legislation will it need to comply with? Insurance, sea-worthyness tests etc.?

Love to know more details about your thoughts & plans.
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2017, 08:28:58 pm »

Personally, I see 17 foot long as a bit too small for four people. Our manned battleships were built with portability first and foremost. The smaller two Holstein and Canopus were 4.2M and 4.1M length respectively, with a beam of 1M. Draught was reduced to about 150mm with a flat bottom and 'mirror dingy' style construction around the joints, being fibreglassed with glass tape, once glued together. The bottom hull needed to be strong enough for a person to stand on without putting your foot through the bottom! Four almost full length runners were fitted along the bottom of the hull. Two being capped with aluminium U section to aid sliding onto the bespoke trailer, and to protect the bottom when sliding into the water. Four handles, two a side, are fitted through the hull sides to aid launch and recovery, but mainly to manhandle on and off the trailer. There is also a screw fixing point in the bow, into which a handle can be fitted for the initial pull into or out of the water. The superstructures sit in U hinge brackets, and can hinge open either to port or starboard, but can be easily unhitched and dumped overboard in case of disaster.
The two man boat, HMS Cornwallis was 4.5M in length, with 8 handles down the sides, anticipating more hands needed to launch it. As it turned out, despite its greatly reduced draught, it was impossible to launch by human hand alone, and ended up with a bespoke trailer/launcher instead.
It was fortunate that the designer of these models had spent years designing small boats for Halmatics of Havant. This helped to make these three models very practical to use, and two are still active within the Portsmouth Display Team.
Photos show the models at IFOS 2005 in No3 Basin, including recovery by crane at the end of the event, giving a good indication of draught. Plus a number of shots from Beale Park and Canoe Lake, Southsea.
My ramblings are leading to a conclusion, design it right from all aspects, practicality, launch and recovery, safety, structural integrity etc..it is just a good job you are not including two fourteen shot gun turrets into the design, then it gets really interesting!!
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2017, 09:27:56 pm »

 Good Evening ''plastic''.
 I too have become interested in manned model boats, but only since seeing them on Youtube over this last year or so.  You are quite correct in saying. ''At 17 feet long, it's huge and it's going to literally weigh a ton'' but this is not a difficult project for me, for I was a wooden boat builder for much of my working life.
 I ran my own small yard for quite a few years (Fisher & Son, Master Boatbuilders) and I see this project as being very therapeutic now that I am retired and having sold my 25Ton TSMY a couple of years ago.
 There are several models in my home plus several large paintings of various sailing ships on the walls, but building something like this is, for me, very enjoyable, for I have no pressure from customers, no apprentices to teach and at this size I have no worries about moorings or yard bills, so as an ex sailorman this is very enjoyable and the physical exercise is good for me.
 But to answer your questions! You are right to be concerned about the strength in a small vessel that may be asked to carry 4 people, but I have no doubts on that score for I have always built strong vessels and I have sailed them for thousands of miles at sea in all weathers. When you are 500 miles from land with a gale brewing and night fast approaching, then you appreciate a strongly built vessel.
 So, to the project. I have always liked these Dutch Coasters for a great variety of reasons. The hulls are inherently strong, for they were load carriers (general cargo) thus box like amidships but very shapely at the ends.
Without giving you a list of all the scantlings, suffice to say that I am building with clean dry pine with 5/8 good quality ply for the main bulkheads. Deck will be 1/4 ply
Hull skin (various possibilities ) but I am thinking I might use strip planking, because there is available locally a good supply of excellent square section timber that will take the curves without problems and likely without steaming.
The hull will be epoxy sheathed and all timber soaked in epoxy prior to painting.
There are two Hold (cargo) areas both aprox. 4ft x 3 ft with a bridge deck amidships and 6ft legroom and these are the seating areas.
Both holds to have hatch covers as per original ship, thus no working parts ( for the crew) on show.
When I get around to replacing my broken camera I will post some pics.
 Both hold areas likely to be timber lined on the inside of the 2ins deep framing right up to deck level for this gives strength and also covers the ballast that will be secured between the frames. This is the time honoured way that the old sailing ships were built. Although I am building in timber, the original vessels were always built of steel, so one challenge for me is to make my model look like a steel vessel from the outside.
 I do not envisage the possibility that this model will not be finished, Full Stop.
However, should I expire before/after completion then my wife will have instructions on selling the vessel.
 Oh yes! I have decided to build her in 2 halves and the join will be amidships at the bridge deck where there is maximum strength. Needless to say both halves to be completely watertight.
The reason for this is because her first outing will be to travel around to the other side of our house before being launched in our swimming pool and there is an awkward corner to negotiate, if I build her in one piece! but no trouble if she is in 2 halves.
Furthermore, in 2 halves she will be easier to load on a purpose built trailer that I will definitely need if I should take her to the coast.
 Motor. Not decided at this point because I want if possible to replicate the wonderful sound of the original type of engine often fitted to these ships.
I know what I would like to fit, but my wife has vetoed that option on cost grounds.
I do have a suitcase generator that is quiet and just powerful enough and that would be a good choice, easy to arrange the drive and easy to have forward and reverse controls.
 Legislation: Before I retired, I was a Senior Small Ship Surveyor and on the YDSA general Committee for several years, so I can speak with some authority.
In England, you can build whatever you like and sail wherever you wish (around the coast) with complete freedom, however, if you use the Inland Waterways, legislation applies. If you carry passengers for gain, legislation applies.
If you go outside UK territorial waters, legislation applies.
For a manned model in UK to be used on say a large boating lake or river, you need no pieces of paper but you might consider Insurance if there is any chance at all of injuring anyone.
I live in Spain, where the Authorities just might get awkward but if they do, I already have an International Certificate of Competence for power and sail up to 80ft or 80 Tons.
 I have had an enjoyable day today cutting out and jointing the various sections of the curved sternpost and propellor aperture and securing same to the keel. All of the centreline is being cut from 2'' x 3'' clean dry pine, much easier to work than the really heavy oak or iroko timbers I used to work with.
Watch this space  :-))
 
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2017, 09:52:41 pm »

And hello to you  ''unbuiltnautilus''

Yours was a very interesting post for me, especially with regard the draft of your large models which I can only see on Youtube.

I deliberately do not want to compromise the draft of my own little vessel and I do have the options of floating light or heavy, because they were general cargo vessels and would take on water ballast when unloaded.

One does need to be aware of stability so I have increased the beam a little but precisely how much ballast is required remains to be seen.
I did start doing the calculations but got bored, however I will likely work it out later, when I have the hull in frame.
The main difficulty is that if I load her with too much ballast, then she will be difficult for me to move.  Even in 2 halves she will be heavy, but quite easy for me to manage around the perimiter of the house and while launching in our pool.
We are fortunate in having a large pool that will very easily accomodate this vessel plus a dozen swimmers and it may well be that when finished I will be satisfied just seeing her afloat without the hassle of taking her to the beach or our local harbour.

I am amused to see your marvellous warships firing their guns, but I have no such plans, for I have had enough of the regulations in UK regarding any sort of cannon or firearms. I used to be a firearms dealer for quite a few years and I used to handle the starting cannons for the RDYC when we were members, jolly good fun and good luck to you.
I shall now look with interest at all the photos you posted.

Thanks ok2

Thanks again for posting those photos, very helpfull indeed and especially interesting to see the vessel in the slings of the crane.

Although shallow draft, that same draft is carried to the very ends of the hull thus considerable initial stability.  The Dutch Coasters however, were very fine at the ends so I need more draft (and more ballast) to give equal stability.

Just a thought on the crew.!  I think I initially said capable of carrying 4 persons and so she will be, but too confined, so 2 will be Ok, and they will have plenty of legroom. Unlike your warships, I have no need of being hidden below deck, I shall sit in the aft hold, when my head will be just about level with the top of the aft superstructure and I can use a double ended paddle in the event of engine failure.
 
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 10:21:05 pm »

Looking forward to progress on this build. It sounds like the design of this vessel is in good hands.
May I suggest to partially solve your ballast problems, recruiting the 'larger' members of your inner circle of potential crew members, ballast, but removable :-)
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2017, 10:35:44 pm »

Good suggestion and that is, in part, why I considered 4 people as crew, however, that is likely troublesome for me and I do have another alternative, iron ore!  We live in an area that once mined the stuff and there is lots lying about and it is surprisingly heavy, so I will likely compromise by stowing steel bars (encapsulated in epoxy) within the frame spaces under the inner lining and this will bring her down to her marks for carrying water ballast, and then I can load iron ore into the midships storage area and under the foredeck.
At one time I would have used lead, but now must consider the costs and the iron ore is free.
Your comments have got me interested again in ballast, so I will get around to doing the sums, which will actually be easier now that I have started the build.

PS:  Your photos of Portsmouth harbour took me back some 58 years for I am ex Royal marines SBS and we used to paddle our 16ft canoes around there doing exercises, happy days!
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Ballast
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 06:21:12 am »

Writing those posts last evening made me wake up early when I thought I had better do some maths.

A quick but accurate calculation of the volume of the immersed section of the hull at the minimum draft I require of 10 inches, gives an underwater volume of aprox. 37.8 cube ft which equals 1.05 Tons in fresh water.
I have also calculated that she could easily carry 20 sacks of iron ore, each sack being aprox 100lbs and still have plenty of room for a passenger in the fwd hold.
Therefore I am now quite satisfied that she will float to the marks I want, and when she is in frame, I will calculate how much steel is required to fill the spaces between frames, and more importantly, how heavy I want each half of the hull to be (without iron ore ballast) so that I can easily move her around the outside of the house and also launch her without difficulty.
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 06:49:16 am »

Why not use ballast tanks filled with water? The boat would weigh a lot less to move around and you could pump water on board until you get to the right waterline - and then pump it out after for recovery.

The altenative is carrying around about a ton of iron - that will be either permanently fixed so you have a heavy boat or your car has a very full boot - and who is going to shift that ton of ballast into the boat before sailing and then unload afterwards - how fit will your crew be?

Of course, the next logical progression would be free-flooding spaces within the hull so it fills & empties it's own ballast as you put it in the water.
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 12:36:09 pm »


ummmmm, always led to believe that pig iron took in a colossal amount of moisture.........I have visions of this venture sinking below the waters, taking its brave and gallant crew with it............hope that you have space, as it is carrying passengers, for an MCA regulation self inflating 4 man life raft for when disaster strikes.


by the way..............don't you have one of these new fangled tellingbones these days that can take pictures of your project until you get your camera repaired. %% %% %% %% %%

Jim.
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A few pics
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2017, 04:30:29 pm »

Here are a few pics so you all can see what one old fellow has decided to build.

I did not build the finished model 051.jpg and I am raising the height of the well deck a little for not all of these ships were so low amidships.

I have to admit to a fleeting moment of doubt when I clamped the profile to the building frame this morning, because it reminded me of several real working launches that I built and they were heavy!

Oh well, I have started so I will finish, but I am in no rush :-))

PS: To plastic.
Water ballast is not practical in such a small vessel for it takes up a vast amount of space, the tanks must be sealed and also must have numerous baffles, thus the space is wasted as not available for anything else. So ballast will be steel bars and iron ore!
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2017, 05:32:07 pm »

Looking good - how will you move the finished boat? If it's going to be about a ton, will you need to get a mobile crane in?

Also, if you say water ballast will use up the space, what are you planning to do with this boat? Will it be a type of cabin cruiser in disguise so people can live aboard for a few days?

It looks as though you are going for electric drive  - powered by a generator set with off-line battery capacity maybe?
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2017, 07:31:08 pm »


 what are you planning to do with this boat?


What indeed!   %%   To be honest, I get my enjoyment from the building and seeing the shape come together and I will also enjoy painting the hull without having to get her to a slipway and erect scaffolding etc etc.
Although one needs to plan ahead (and I have already drawn up the design of a special trailer with separate launching trolley) that is not my priority. Seeing her afloat in our pool is %% .

Moving the 2 halves around the house to the pool will be quite easy, but I will of course have to make a wheeled trolley for that. No problem, but then for many years we used to move 20 Tonners on greased ways!

Would I be right in thinking that you are planning to build a manned model yourself, or perhaps you have already done so?
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2017, 07:36:05 pm »


from looking at the main structure, it would seam that the rudder to fit into that placement would be very limited in steerage way........are you planning to put an extended rudder or perhaps a kortz nozzle onto the pintal.


Jim.
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2017, 07:51:40 pm »


Would I be right in thinking that you are planning to build a manned model yourself, or perhaps you have already done so?

I'm thinking of something very much simpler - maybe along the lines of an 8 foot long supertanker about 20 inches wide that I can lay down flat in with my head sticking up inside the superstructure and powered by a trolling motor.

It could be made out of a couple of 1/4" 8x4 sheets of ply so it would be possible to transport it on a roofrack - a bit like a single wardrobe - or a pointy-ended coffin.  {-)
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2017, 08:18:39 pm »

I'm thinking of something very much simpler - maybe along the lines of an 8 foot long supertanker about 20 inches wide that I can lay down flat in with my head sticking up inside the superstructure and powered by a trolling motor.

A word of caution - STABILITY -  Allow me to give an example. The first boat I ever built (I was ten) was a greenland kayak 16ft x 20 ins beam. I very quickly learned how to do the Eskimo Roll.
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2017, 08:24:30 pm »

from looking at the main structure, it would seam that the rudder to fit into that placement would be very limited in steerage way........are you planning to put an extended rudder or perhaps a kortz nozzle onto the pintal.

Jim.
I am not sure what you are seeing Jim, the rudder would be capable of 180 degrees of movement (far more than necessary or desirable) but there are many options here and I have not yet decided on the motor
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2017, 08:36:41 pm »

The Tanker sounds a bit narrow on the beam to safely step into without going for an early swim! Maybe a slight increase of beam to, say 30", make a box section centre at 8 foot long, then bolt on foam filled fore and aft extenders to give you a bit more 'boat' while still being practical enough to transport fairly easily. Roger Wilkinson of Kittiwake Boats, built his KGV battleship and Type 12 frigate from 8 foot sections bolted together. They were both 24 foot long though. The pilot sat across two of the joins on top of a raised bulkhead, still you would occasionally get a wet backside!
I have had the pleasure of driving all three of our manned battleships, Rogers Type 12...big boat to get used to, and the 'other' nuclear submarine,16 foot, built using his plans pack..plus my mate Andys slightly foreshortened battleship, built in Wales about ten years back. That was about 14 foot long and a tight fit to get in to.
When we were first planning the manned battleships, a full size cardboard mock up was produced to test its human/battleship interfaces! Could we get in easily, get out, see out, operate the controls etc etc..well worth considering before embarking on a smaller build.
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2017, 08:57:37 pm »

A word of caution - STABILITY -  Allow me to give an example. The first boat I ever built (I was ten) was a greenland kayak 16ft x 20 ins beam. I very quickly learned how to do the Eskimo Roll.

The longer it gets the less draught it will have for the same mass - I'm planning on about 6" draught so my body mass will be mostly laying under the water line so it should be quite stable. To make it roll, it will have to push volumes of air downwards on one side and lift solid mass (me) upwards on the other.  It is likely to have about 9" of freeboard.  It will only be out on small, calm lakes or ponds - I'm not planning on crossing the channel in it. More like being a manned tanker for model tugs to try to push around.

Most manned boats seem to have the captain sitting upright which raises the centre of gravity way too high for my designs.

Getting in and out will be like getting into a canoe - carefully.

I'm planning on doing the whole thing for a couple of hundred pounds so if it doesn't work out, I've not lost much. Also, smaller is transportable a storable without having it take over the garage.
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2017, 09:23:50 pm »

The longer it gets the less draught it will have for the same mass - I'm planning on about 6" draught so my body mass will be mostly laying under the water line so it should be quite stable. To make it roll, it will have to push volumes of air downwards on one side and lift solid mass (me) upwards on the other.  It is likely to have about 9" of freeboard.  It will only be out on small, calm lakes or ponds - I'm not planning on crossing the channel in it. More like being a manned tanker for model tugs to try to push around.

Most manned boats seem to have the captain sitting upright which raises the centre of gravity way too high for my designs.

Getting in and out will be like getting into a canoe - carefully.

I'm planning on doing the whole thing for a couple of hundred pounds so if it doesn't work out, I've not lost much. Also, smaller is transportable a storable without having it take over the garage.


Also if it all goes to hell in a handcart, you can always replace the human element with many bottles of water and still use it for tug towing :-))
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Re: Dutch Coaster (of the 1950's) to 1/8 scale
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2017, 09:25:18 pm »


Also if it all goes to hell in a handcart, you can always replace the human element with many bottles of water and still use it for tug towing :-))

Exactly - nothing lost.
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