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Author Topic: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017  (Read 8328 times)

Davo

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Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« on: September 14, 2017, 08:40:02 PM »

Built in 1966 my Sea Queen spent some time in the 70s with a Merco 61 as power. After some 25 years in dry dock I decided this year that the Merco would go for the simplicity of electric power.
Being new to all the latest electrical equipment I decided to install a Graupner 700BB with a 12V 5000 mAh SC NiMH battery and using the existing 2026 alloy two blade propeller.
Performance was quite acceptable. With the battery amidships below the cockpit it floated level and the bow came out of the water for a convincing scale speed.
However, success with a Sea Nymph going brushless with a 2028 motor lead me to believe I had maybe gone down the wrong road.
So, after much reading of the articles on brushless motors, I bought a Tornado Thumper V3 3542/05 1250KV and mounted it on another 700 engine mount so I could swap motors easily if things went wrong. A Hawk BL 60A HV brushless controller took care of power distribution. Looking at the installed tiny outrunner, less than half the size of the 700BB (and much lighter) I thought I had made a mistake.  Given these are really aero motors I mounted a 60mm dia computer fan with its own 9v battery to blow air through the motor.
Taking to the water with the same battery and prop was a revelation. Probably twice the speed with the boat on the plane as I remember it with the Merco 61.  I will experiment with other propellers and of course maybe higher voltage. Brushless motors are without doubt the way to go.
The picture is with the 700BB. (no one around to  take brushless pictures!)
David
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David

canabus

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2017, 12:18:31 AM »

Hi Davo
Nice engine swap.
OH, THE POWER OF BRUSHLESS!!!!!

If you go to 4S Lipo you will can about an extra 3500 rpm.
That if the ESC will take 4S.

Note the power rating for the motors are on the maximum voltage they can handle.

Canabus
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Davo

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2017, 11:30:02 PM »

There are still some minor works to be done. A brass framed screen will be added and I may reinstate the window frames but cut from brass sheet. Would be nice if there was an etched brass set available!
The Merco water cooling pipework still exists and was used for the brushed controller. Now I know this will not be going back in I may devise a brass assembly to water cool the engine mount frame.
I have also made a harness to put two 7.2v batteries together for a 14.4v set up. Classic boating at it's best.

(Still getting used to the University Challenge each time I post.........)
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David

derekwarner_decoy

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2017, 12:36:54 AM »

Dave...

From the image Sea Queen 200.jpg below. the windows appear  :o to have condensation......with the 60 mm pillow fan, is the a sufficient opening the cabin to provide fresh air for the fan?.....and so following on is there a corresponding outlet for the warm air from over the motor?

Derek
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JB

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2017, 06:02:39 AM »

The photo of your Sea Queen takes me back to 1967 at my old haunt of fleetwood lake in Lancashire!

A lovely pic  :-))

Well done for resurrecting the boat.

Lots of video online if you know where to look..

A few here for your interest..... and everyone else's I would think (hope?)  O0 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHJPgeUVAM4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au6JQ7bopdE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlaZmZJ0cGA




Enjoy folks..

JaB.
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JB

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2017, 06:25:54 AM »

Another worth watching..if I've got the link right? !!!

Even I get it wrong ...sometimes..or is that.... usually??? %%


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpZ-nsLTWc&t=22s

Might be a Fairy Huntsman or two in there... others too.. Aerokits crash tender? ..all good stuff anyway

JaB.
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JB

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2017, 06:43:00 AM »

I think.. not certain though  that this is a Mayhem members  Sea Queen with brushless?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO4olY1x13Q&t=3s

My old laptop is feeling the strain. will have to shut down for a while.

JaB.
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Davo

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2017, 09:13:56 AM »

The Youtube links are great and the ability these days to have on board footage is interesting.

Re cooling; the front windows remain open and the cabin door has open slats for letting air out; (and smoke in the old days!). The foggy windows are down to a lazy window cleaner!  The scale of the boat suggested a stepped cockpit floor and large door. The picture shows the trim tabs still fitted from IC days. See picture from 1975.
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David

JB

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2017, 10:09:33 AM »

Re Cooling.. the outlet must be at least 3 times the area of the inlet  O0

sounds daft but it's true..

I have seen model aircraft with very little in the way of outlet area in relation to the inlet..a small outlet hole only... %)   the flyer could  not understand why their I.C. engine cut out...not enough air flow out of the model airframe.  would think it's the same for an electric 'engine' in a boat ! unless it's watercooled....

Back later..italics are stuck on!

Just my sixpence .. :-))

JaB.
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Tug-Kenny

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2017, 10:15:55 AM »


if you look at your letter (under Preview) you can see the little letter  (I)

Cut and re paste this where you want the ITALICS to end.   ok2

ken

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JB

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2017, 10:33:09 AM »

Thanks Ken!

A new one to me, every day is a school day, take me the rest of the day to work it out  :embarrassed:

Ta.

JaB.
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Davo

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2017, 10:53:36 PM »

Being a newcomer to modern boat electronics I am wondering if I have the right fuse(s) in the right place. Searching 'fuses' did not throw up any articles. With the above set-up I only have one fuse on the positive feed from the battery to the ESC of 60amps rating.
The wiring Diagrams on the forum seem to show a second fuse protecting a brushed motor. Should a brushless motor be fuse protected? And, if so, which of the three wires would you choose?
Any guidance gratefully received!
David
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David

canabus

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 02:40:10 AM »

Hi Davo

Fuse for the brushless motor via ESC are not required.

As I use the XT-60 connectors on the battery to ESC, I do not use any fuses in my setups.

Canabus
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Davo

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 12:35:47 PM »

Hi Canabus.

The XT 60 connectors look the part for high voltage applications. Does that mean the Tamiya connectors used so far with 14AWG are not quite up to the job?. As high voltage will be for relatively short durations I hope that the Tamiya connectors will be ok.
So, do I need any fuse at all in a set up for brushless ESC (Hawk BL 60A HV)? To get a 60A fuse in the circuit means using a MAXI Blade fuse though I have also bought a 60A re-settable in-line fuse to try.
My current set up is quite simple (and will be tidied up when finalised!) as can be seen. The current small in-line fuse of 30A being not able to handle full throttle.
The water cooling was for the previous brushed ESC and will be adapted to some form of motor mount cooling.
Thanks in anticipation of guidance/comment.
David
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Davo

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2017, 09:37:37 PM »

Since the last post I have delved through some of the technical pages on the Mayhem website and decided to fit a re-setable  60amp fuse between the battery and the ESC. This quite large item was bolted to the bulkhead above the battery. This can also be used to isolate the battery at the press of a button. The ESC used did not have an ON/OFF switch as per other ESCs used. Just need to see how it goes on the water.
David
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Peter Wallis

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2017, 03:21:31 PM »

So good to hear that I was not alone way back when I built my Sea Queen around 1963/4  also powered by a Merco 61 .
I converted to a MFA800 brushed motor initially with a Gel Cell then NiMH but early this year asked for advice via this 'FORUM' . As a result I switched to a 4Max Purple Power outrunner together with Turnigy Marine ESC  60A water cooled .
Not forgetting there was a weight reduction from 535G to 130G = updating the motor that must have been at least 20 years old ! This plus the 3S LiPo and prop change has changed the Sea Queen into a genuine 'fast electric' that one can use in the sea ..............YES .
I try and use metal props and common power source as I use the same 3S LiPO's in my Swordsman . -
I prefer to use but need to order a couple of replacements props - just in case !


   
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Davo

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2017, 04:29:23 PM »

Peter,
Good to hear another SQ has been refurbished. As you say, the weight savings with brushless and Lipo batteries is substantial. Maybe I should pluck up courage to go Lipo as well.  I have already invested in a modern charger for such things.
The Sea Queen is one model that would be quite happy on a reasonably calm sea and it would be lovely to try  one day (keeping swimming trunks to hand!).  I remember back in the 1960s that the SQ was often a choice for off-shore racing. No doubt lots of rinsing and cleaning after a run to avoid salt corrosion.
Maybe we need a Sea Queen Forum page!
David
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Peter Wallis

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2017, 06:10:33 PM »

Well David the dear old Sea Queen has attracted a lot of 'posts' .
I know you can go further but in my own case a 3S LiPO was big enough as I always like commonality and this capacity does just that .................YES
Not sure how the experts work out prop size and pitch but I use a watt meter to measure how many watts we drawing making sure we are within safety limits for the ESC - so far so good .
The ESC I'm now using is rated up to 60A and the max I draw off is below 50A and that's only in short bursts - she plain's beautifully with this set up but I may fit a small fan to circulate air . This will use its own LiPO .


All the very best for now .


Peter
 





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Davo

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2017, 08:56:11 PM »

Being new to brushless technology, and not having the advantage of a club and pooled knowledge, I am on a steep learning curve. It may be that an INRUNNER motor might well have the power desired but also have the benefit of full water cooling.  Still, I am very happy with the boat as it is at present so will enjoy it for now.
As mentioned, new windscreen and window frames are next on the list to bring her back up to standard. Will be looking out for friendly Action Man to take the helm.
David
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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2017, 09:32:53 PM »

David - with reference to your initial post can I ask where you got your motor mount from or is it one you've made? It looks as though you have fitted the aero mounting X piece to the motor and then connected that to the motor mount.

I'm looking to do the same thing but need to source the motor mount.

My motor is a bigger diameter being a Tornado Thumper V3 4250/06 800kv.

Chris
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Davo

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2017, 04:46:18 PM »

Chris,
The electric motor installation uses two of the original four mounts used for the Merco 61; which is why it looks a bit Heath Robinson. Having installed a 700BB motor it seemed logical to adapt the same motor mount for the 3542 brushless motor. The rationale being if it went wrong I could just drop the 700BB back in.
So a AMP 700 motor mount was obtained from Cornwall Model Boats (also available from Mantua Model UK Ltd) and fitted with the brushless motor mount as seen.  Alignment of the 700BB took a lot of trial and error but using the same mount allowed the brushless to just drop in. The bottom leg of the cross mount was filed down a bit to centre the motor.  I would think there is enough room for a 4250 motor. Cornwall Model Boats do an 800 size mount made to the same standards which might be an option.
Hope this is of help.
David
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Peter Wallis

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2017, 05:36:23 PM »

Hi Guys - dare I say I too used the old engine bears from Merco 61 days when I fitted the dear old MFA motor .
The MFA motor was supplied with the mount and I was able to adapt this to take a model aircraft 'spider' mount that is perfect for the job . I too had the problem of alignment but managed in the end .
I find the 3S LiPO more than adequate for my needs - the ESC cuts out when the LiPO reach's a critical level . I then move the stick to neutral and gentle move forward that restarts the motor that gets me back pondside . Another good reason to use LiPO power .........................
 
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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2017, 09:24:32 PM »

David & Peter

Thanks for the information. I'll order a mount from Cornwall Model boats and see how I get on, will go for the 800.

I'd like to use the cross/spider as it came with the motor and fits it well.

Chris
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Davo

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2017, 11:31:35 PM »

Chris
I can vouch that the aluminium mount is both very light and stiff. For my smaller boats I have fabricated mounts but, as mentioned above, the easier route was a purpose made mount for the initial brushed motor.
I am looking to see how I can add some water cooling to the front of the mount although so far the motor has stayed cool. I am not sure how much influence the fan has on the installation.
Do post your final installation as the shared knowledge on this Forum is invaluable.
David
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Peter Wallis

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Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. - Motor Mounts
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2017, 09:31:27 AM »




Chris / David - my 4MAX outrunner was in fact second hand that was given to me by a fellow flyer . We had pond trials on Friday and apart from a few prop changes seem to have the right set up which I put down to using the watt meter .
What I call spider mounts I buy from www.4-max.co.uk . They have an extensive range of  'motor mounts' that I think you will find useful .


Peter 
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