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[Captain Flack]

Is there a very, very simple system of scoring for class yacht racing where all we need to do is enter the finishing poistions.

 During the course of a season we have about 60 races and it would be nice to be able to enter the finishing positions, tell the software how many discards we want and then let the computer tell us who's won, at the end of the season.   Any body point us in the right direction please.

[dreadnought72]

Easy job! 


How many yachts sailing, how many discards do they get, and what points are scored per place?


Andy

[Captain Flack]

18 Yachts, 8 discards and we use low point scoring.

[SailorGreg]

At the risk of overkill, you could use Sailwave which is widely used in full size racing from club level up to world championship and is free to download. It does heaps more than you require, but is readily available, easy to use and fully supported.  If you want to run a handicap system with different classes, it will do that. But there may well be a simpler system that suits you as well.

Greg

[dreadnought72]

18 Yachts, 8 discards and we use low point scoring.

Thanks! I'm going to suggest an Excel spreadsheet ... will spend a couple of hours this evening!


Andy

[dreadnought72]

Very nearly there! 


I've a couple of questions:


1/ If, for example, 16 yachts sail in one race and 2 don't, I'm presuming the two who don't pick up a score of 17 'fail' points each. (17 as the last finisher picks up 16 points). And I'm presuming there's no difference in 'fail' points for either a non-starter ('I didn't race') or a non-finisher ('I sank after the first mark')? (Subtle difference there!)


2/ Discards are automatically allocated to the worst results - do I start the discard process after the ninth race, or at the end of the season?


More very soon - and a file for you to play with!


Andy

[dreadnought72]

Ah.


The forum doesn't let me attach spreadsheets. I can see why. Can you PM me an email address and I'll pop it to you? It's a plain vanilla spreadsheet - no macros, no viruses, etc. - and it looks like this:


Andy

[Martin (Admin)]

 
               

[SailorGreg]

The DNS (did not start) boats should score the number of entries (18 in this case) plus one. If they scored one more than the starters in that race then a very poorly attended race could give some boats an advantageous score to count in their final score. In an extreme case a boat might discard 17, 16, 15 from races he sailed and count a 3, 4, 5 from races he missed (along with most of the others). I don't think you should ever count a DNS score over a race that was completed.  Could throw up some very odd results at the end.


Retirees could get number of starters plus 1. After all they turned up so should score better than someone who didn't.


The spreadsheet looks good. Not sure if it shows accumulated points and sorts positions as the series progresses? It is interesting to see who is leading and how much you have to make up to beat him.


Greg

[SailorGreg]

Meant to add a bit about discards. Ideally, these should kick in gradually. Something like, after 1or 2 races, no discard. After three or four races, one discard. After four or five races, 2 discards ....... After 17 or 18 races, 8 discards. If it's all left to the end, everyone tries to do the mental arithmetic to remove the worst scores as the series progresses and normally gets it wrong!


Greg

[dreadnought72]

Good points!


The other issues I have at the moment are:

1/ In the early part of the series, all discards are available, so - effectively - all boats rank #1 until race number nine (the discards cover all results until this point, no matter what the real results). This could be weighted so that the number of firsts, seconds, etc. are taken into account to provide a better idea of ranking. Later in the series this becomes increasingly less of an issue.


2/ In the example, boats 2 and 4  currently rank second, but boat 2 has more third place positions than boat 4. As above, if - for equal ranking boats - real positions were taken into effect, then boat 2 is 'better'. Again, over a sixty match series, this will become less relevant.


Andy

[Rhys]

My tuppence.
DNS should as has been previously said score points for entrants for the series plus 1. 18 entered, DNS gets points for 19
DNF should get place for last on the race plus 1. ie 6 finish, all those who started but DNF get points for 7th
Discards done at the end.
Did not attend can not be discarded. That way the clever maths folk who think they can stay home and still place well are penalised for the decision to not support what you are trying to do.

[dreadnought72]

Good thoughts, Rhys ... I'm thinking a pair of discards every 'quarter', allocated (and then immovable) at the end of each set of 15 races.


Thing is, Captain Flack has been mysteriously silent on this thread for over a week. I'm happy to brew up a revised spreadsheet following peoples' suggestions, and post the finished spreadsheet, but if there's no interest... 


Andy

[SailorGreg]

Did not attend can not be discarded. That way the clever maths folk who think they can stay home and still place well are penalised for the decision to not support what you are trying to do.

Do you mean you have to count every DNS (Did Not Start)? That would be most unfair in my view. For example, if there are twenty races and ten discards and someone turns up to ten of them and wins them all they would have to discard all their wins and count all their DNS scores. Is that right?


Andy, I think what you propose on discards is making one long series into 4 short ones. Discarding worst results should be a dynamic process covering the whole series.


There are clubs around the country who run racing regularly. I wonder what they do? I am surprised we haven't seen anyone popping up here with a ready made solution.   


Greg

[Rhys]

Do you mean you have to count every DNS (Did Not Start)? That would be most unfair in my view. For example, if there are twenty races and ten discards and someone turns up to ten of them and wins them all they would have to discard all their wins and count all their DNS scores. Is that right?


Andy, I think what you propose on discards is making one long series into 4 short ones. Discarding worst results should be a dynamic process covering the whole series.


There are clubs around the country who run racing regularly. I wonder what they do? I am surprised we haven't seen anyone popping up here with a ready made solution.   


Greg

I was actually working from experience as a Race Officer for events as varied as Tornado World Championships (the 20' catamaran used at Olympics) and NZ National One metre champs.
Did not start in a series means that you are actually there for an event, but for some reason could not start, so you get the number present that day +1. That means you make an attempt to get over the start line is advantageous over those who stay on shore. It is encumbant on the race officer to ensure that they are not pushing people onto the water when the conditions are unwise, at least for where you are endangering people as in full size.
Did not attend, means exactly that.
Every series I have ever been involved with whether in full size sailing (which I did for over 45 years) or limited model yachts, has had one discard after either 4 or 5 races. 1 every 2 would be a joke.


Another way would be to treat each event as a regatta on it's own, points in the same way, 1 discard if you get to 5 races. So you then have a winner for the weekend/day with points down to the lowest place. Everyone else in the series scores points for that number plus ? As each event is a regatta of it's own, that part is easy. A series in which I took part for several years in Sandyachting here in the UK then applied a "high points" for the series. 10 points for the first, 8 for second, 7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Every attendee got at least 1. Non attendees got 0. Discard for the series was after 7 events.


I too agree that putting the discards in place as you have suggested splitting them would make a small set of "separate" events.


I hope that makes sense.

[Captain Flack]

I've been silent because I've been in the sun!!!!! Canaries. yeah!!!!!
I appreciate the work your doing.  Will PM you the info you want, this weekend.

[Captain Flack]

PM sent

[dreadnought72]

Cheers, Cap'n!


I'll be on it today & tomorrow. 


Andy

[dreadnought72]

After a PM from the Good Cap'n, I think we're there. 


The attachment is version 2.


The box on the left is used to record just the finishing positions or "c"/"f" for each boat in each race. It colours itself, highlighting the top three and the non-finishers, and at the top lists the number of wins or non-starts for each boat. DNF = race boats+1, DNC/DNS = fleet+1.


Discards kick off after the end of Series #2, with two automatically calculated, and then an additional one at the end of each subsequent series.


The middle box shows the ranking per race as it develops - a good way to spot the trends.


The right box show the number of points that first place (whoever that is) has currently got, and how many points adrift other places are. So, end of race #16, boat 11, Buoy Zone picks up four points to add to his 117, and discards a 15 and 14 point result to end, still in first, on 92 points. The series rank #2, HMS Surprise, is trailing by five points.


It seems to work! 


Andy