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Author Topic: Not another Klimek?  (Read 943 times)

doonie

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Not another Klimek?
« on: November 14, 2017, 08:21:13 PM »

Gíday, doonie Ďere. Iím gunna have a go at the Klimek.
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doonie

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2017, 08:29:31 PM »

 If anybody else here has done it, Iíd appreciate any info or advice. Also, Iím not fast, the Paddlesteamer took five years to build. Thatís the PS Dispatch, sheís five foot long.

Here is a liddle movie about the PS Dispatch's maiden voyage.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IJVix76r4E

The Klimek is gunna be a shade over four foot but she is a much bigger ship overall.
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doonie

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2017, 08:32:03 PM »

The Klimek is going to be electric powered and RC, of course.  So Iíll need an idea of how many revs a motor should do, what size and type of motor and what size prop. Iíd like to have built most of that in before starting on the planking. Iíd also like to put a bow thruster in (Iíll just give the ship a different name if that makes it not true to scale) because I havenít built a ship with a bow thruster in it yet. Iíll need some advice and info there too please.
Seeing as Iím going away from the original and just building a Tug Boat, doya reckon Iíd get away with building a kort? Thatís another thing I donít know anything about so any advice would be greatly received.
Iíve got a laser cutter, a heap of free 4 mm ply and a pile of software so Iím managing to get some nc code to cut stuff out. The platform for the laser cutter is only A3 so bits are going to have to be joined together. I made the size of it to whatever I can get onto an A3 sheet. 
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doonie

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2017, 08:33:50 PM »

. The keel has worked out to 1245 mm long tip to tail and the boat about 320 mm wide, ish. Dunno what that would be as a scale, hoping somebody can tell me.
Iíve made a start then it got hot so Iíve stayed out of the shed for a while.
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tugmad

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2017, 09:02:30 PM »

Well looking good so far Donnie nice!
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doonie

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2017, 10:57:36 PM »

Got a liddle more done but it is getting hot again so I've had to stop. I've turned it upside down to get all the frames in the right plane with regard to the keel. I'm thinking some super glue to tack them in place then turn it right way up so that I can get the keel dead straight. I was also thinking of laser cutting a pile of dead square 45 degree gussets to super glue in near the keel to get all the frames square. Then I suppose I'll have to machine up some goes around the edges material (whatever they may be called) and slowly and carefully pull it all straight. Any suggestions would be welcome.
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Ianlind

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2017, 01:23:10 AM »

G'day Doonie,


Whereabouts in Aus?


If it was me, for your main propulsion, I'd be looking at a large diameter heater fan motor out of a Falcon, or better still, a 12 pole Bosch fan motor out of an early VC Commodore, but these car are becoming a bit collectable now!
Belt drive at around 3-1 and it will swing a big prop all day off a car battery. You'll need a big battery to get it to the waterline.


My "Iron Cove" at 4'10 1/2" uses the Falcon motor and drive as above, with a 6" 4 blade prop,  and along with the car battery, still needs around 7kg of lead for ballast.


Ian.
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Tug-Kenny

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2017, 10:09:35 AM »


Very nice Doonie.   :-))

Lovely set of plans to work from.  watching with interest.

ken
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doonie

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2017, 08:47:56 PM »

G'day Doonie,


Whereabouts in Aus?South East Gippsland Mate.


If it was me, for your main propulsion, I'd be looking at a large diameter heater fan motor out of a Falcon, or better still, a 12 pole Bosch fan motor out of an early VC Commodore, but these car are becoming a bit collectable now!
Belt drive at around 3-1 and it will swing a big prop all day off a car battery. You'll need a big battery to get it to the waterline.Got any pictures of how you set that up?


My "Iron Cove" at 4'10 1/2" uses the Falcon motor and drive as above, with a 6" 4 blade prop,  and along with the car battery, still needs around 7kg of lead for ballast. Where did you get the prop and how many revs do you reckon it does>
Cheers, and thanks for the reply

Ian.
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Tug-Kenny

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2017, 08:52:31 PM »


Can you put your replies outside of the quotes, rather than in Capital letters as it's difficult to read.

Thank you.

ken
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Ianlind

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2017, 07:52:48 AM »

G'day Doonie,


You are a bit closer to water than I am here!


Image of the installation attached ( I hope ). The pulleys I make myself from either aluminium or perspex, whatever I have on hand at the time. Size is as they come off the lathe, I don't measure, just eyeball it, and if they look OK, that'll do! The ratio is whatever it comes put at!
The 1/4" polyurethane belting is hollow, and is joined by aluminium studs, so the lengths can be adjusted to suit. It's called Redthane Belting, and is, or should be, readily available from Engineers Suppliers. I used to work for one, so I have a lifetime supply in stock.
The 6" prop is one that I made from a turned brass boss and shaped heavy brass sheet for the blades. Haven't a clue what the pitch is, but it"s big, and it works at very low revs and shifts a lot of water. Not as pretty as those from the likes of the Prop Shop, but 35 years ago we didn't have too many options for big props off the shelf, and as that was before long the Interweb, information was hard to come by easily!
Used to have to write letters back then, and if you were lucky, a reply within 3 weeks from the UK! We are so spoiled by our modern technology!
Ian.
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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2017, 08:21:32 AM »



The Redthane belting looks interesting.


How much tension do you need to prevent slippage? I am concerned about prop shaft bearings etc.


How secure are the studs & do they make for a "hard" section of belting going around the pulley? What do you regard as a minimum diameter pulley?
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Ianlind

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2017, 08:45:30 AM »

G'day Tug Fanatic,

The belting is quite soft and typically urethane which in this case is sort of sticky, but not sticky as such.

You don't need them tight at all, and my pulleys are grooved the same diameter as the belting, so it grips like a vee belt.

I've only had to replace the belting once since I built it in 1982, and that was only because the urethane had perished where the stud barbs had stretched the belting at that point. the rest of the belting was fine and can probably be re-used in a shorter application.
The studs form a bit of swelling around the barb, but it doesn't seem to affect the grip, as it's still urethane in contact with the pulley.
The studs are pretty hard to remove once pushed home, and I've never has one separate yet, and as mentioned before, this is swinging a big prop at 6" x 4 blade

And due to the fact there is no, or little side load on your bushes, they will last a good while. Mine have never been replaced, but then the IC hasn't seen any action for a while either. Plenty of grease in the tube helps as well.

Today we have the timing belts, which are positive grip, but you have to be spot on with your tension and spacing, and therefore, possibly more side load on your bushes. That's unless you go to ball or roller bearings which are now available in some pretty small diameters.

If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll measure that small pulley and I'll get a close up image of the belt removed.
Ian.
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doonie

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2017, 12:50:12 AM »

Excellent information, thank you.
I have discovered some stuff.  Converting the plans to nc code has an effect. For example, the total width of the three main frames were different. Not by much but by a bit so I had to use the size conversion doodad to bring them all to the same size. OK, mental note, check everything. Also, when the laser cuts them out, they don't come out to the size you input them at. For example, those three main frames which should all be the same started life as 312 mm wide but at the completion of cutting were 308 mm wide. Doesn't matter of course because every single laser cut piece will be coming out with the same percentage loss. You have to allow for the thickness of the cut which I guess is shared by both the piece being cut out and the bit left over. Pretty minimal but it is there.
Also, the bits designed by whoever aren't necessarily correct. I had to re cut a couple of frames after making adjustments in the cad program. Once again, not a biggy but one needs to be on one's toes. I have cut a heap of right angle gussets to go in beside the frame and the keel just to square the frames up. Probably not necessary for strength but helps to keep things in place when gluing up the next step.
The frames are all in now and it's time to make the stuff that goes in the slots around the edges. Anybody have a name for that, apart from small sticks?
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Tug Fanatic

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2017, 08:25:06 AM »


G'day Tug Fanatic,

The belting is quite soft and typically urethane which in this case is sort of sticky, but not sticky as such.

You don't need them tight at all, and my pulleys are grooved the same diameter as the belting, so it grips like a vee belt.

I've only had to replace the belting once since I built it in 1982, and that was only because the urethane had perished where the stud barbs had stretched the belting at that point. the rest of the belting was fine and can probably be re-used in a shorter application.
The studs form a bit of swelling around the barb, but it doesn't seem to affect the grip, as it's still urethane in contact with the pulley.
The studs are pretty hard to remove once pushed home, and I've never has one separate yet, and as mentioned before, this is swinging a big prop at 6" x 4 blade

And due to the fact there is no, or little side load on your bushes, they will last a good while. Mine have never been replaced, but then the IC hasn't seen any action for a while either. Plenty of grease in the tube helps as well.

Today we have the timing belts, which are positive grip, but you have to be spot on with your tension and spacing, and therefore, possibly more side load on your bushes. That's unless you go to ball or roller bearings which are now available in some pretty small diameters.

If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll measure that small pulley and I'll get a close up image of the belt removed.
Ian.


Really useful. Thank you.
I look forward to the pulley data.
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Ianlind

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2017, 08:58:06 AM »

I was wrong with the diameter of the Redthane belting. It's actually 3/16" not 1/4 as I thought.


Diameter of small pulley is 33.5mm and the large pulley 78mm. Not an engineered ratio, just as it happened, but it does work well.


I'm thinking you could use a smaller diameter than the 33.5mm, as this stuff is very flexible.


Image attached, showing the joint section of the Iron Cove drive belt with a joiner stud alongside. You can see where it picks up a bit of Aly rub mark on the raised bit, which doesn't affect the performance at all.


I also use this method on my little Emco Unimat SL lathe, and it lasts a lot longer than the original O ring drive belts that perish and split quite quickly, particularly when left in situ on the  pulleys. And the O rings need to be under more tension than the Redthane.


Ian.
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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2017, 09:06:51 AM »


I think this sounds very useful. I have traditionally used multiple O rings but it is always tricky to get the size right & I have lost my source that enabled me to order a few different sizes at very little cost. Cyano joins have never really worked for me.


Thank you.  :-))
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bfgstew

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2017, 09:14:21 AM »

Used polycord for vee drives......cut and vulcanize together (very easy with flat soldering iron), trim off joint and away you go. Loads of different profiles and colours.


http://www.stevensbelting.co.uk/polycord-and-poly-v-belts/
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JimG

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2017, 09:58:46 AM »

Excellent information, thank you.
I have discovered some stuff.  Also, when the laser cuts them out, they don't come out to the size you input them at. For example, those three main frames which should all be the same started life as 312 mm wide but at the completion of cutting were 308 mm wide. Doesn't matter of course because every single laser cut piece will be coming out with the same percentage loss. You have to allow for the thickness of the cut which I guess is shared by both the piece being cut out and the bit left over. Pretty minimal but it is there.


Sounds like the x/y gantry on the laser cutter is needing properly calibrated. The parts should come out to exactly the same size as in the cad drawing. Cut width should less than 0.5mm  if the focus is right .

Jim
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doonie

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2017, 10:00:13 PM »

We continue, slowly. Just coming into summer here so the days get hot quick and bloody hot in my tin shed. I'm ready to start planking. I've set the hull up on this liddle addition to the set out board. As you can see, it allows me to get at everything easily and right there in front of me. This'll be the third hull I've planked like this and it goes well, usually. I think I've figured out why I have so many UFOs, I like making hulls. The first pic is my temporarily stopped 40 foot gentleman's Racer. I planked it like the MTBs of old, at forty five degrees, just for the helluvit.
The next two are the hull frame in position 1
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doonie

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2017, 10:03:02 PM »

and then the next two are swung to the left and right.
The final pic is a heap of cedar I have to start ripping into planks.
It'll be dust mask, ear muffs and dust sucker until once again it gets too hot.
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doonie

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2017, 12:01:56 AM »

Welp, I got about thirty planks cut plus a few odd ones before it got hot. I reckon I'll cut fifty and if there's any left over, so be it. Does anybody have a plan of a jig to cut little planks on an angle. I reckon I'll need a few smaller (not as wide) planks cut on an angle each side to go around the bend in the hull. Tomorrow morning I'll finish cutting and start sanding. Then it'll be plinketty plank time.
By the way, I measured the spot for a prop and reckon I could get a four inch Kort in there. Any suggestions re how many revs for a prop like that. I think I saw one with a pitch of about 5.1 inches. Also what size motor to drive that and what gearing would be best?
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vk2dj

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 08:07:13 PM »

G'day Doonie I have been watching with interest your build I  am building a paddle steamer Adelaide 1/20 scale at the moment as a brake from building a Victorian live steam R class in 5" gauge 6 years into the build & needed a change for a while I was into model boats about 35 years ago so I thought I would build a paddle steamer after a holiday to Echuca
Can you tell me a about your Laser cutter  I am interested in it as I have been playing with AutoCAD for a number of years for my train build by no means an expert by can draw every thing I need it make the parts  2D only the laser would make things easy & more accurate
Regards Gary
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doonie

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2017, 11:11:38 PM »

G'day mate. The laser cutter is the first model Emblaser from Darkly labs here in Victoria. I have upgraded the laser to a slightly bigger one (from Darkly Labs) which is much better. I am able to cut 4 mm ply but must be selective. Lasers don't like a lot of stuff and it is a learning process to get ot use them They can be a bit like a woman; very literal and sometimes do things that have no reasonable explanation. Darkly labs comes with a small cad program called Cut 2d which I love. It also converts your drawings to an NC cut or engrave file. PM me with your email address if you want further info or have a specific question. I'm working with the laser at the moment making the drive/reduction mechanism.
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doonie

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Re: Not another Klimek?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2017, 03:24:25 AM »

G'day Doonie here. I have made an error of judgement, sadly not my first and probably not my Last. I initially attempted to join the TugForum but for whatever reasons was not notified of any acceptance for some time so I joined Mayhem. That acceptance has now arrived and I prefer to build the Tug on the Tug Forum so I have and will move it to there. May I offer my sincere apologies if I have stuffed anybody around. I will, if I may, still lurk around these hallowed halls just to make sure nobody is building a better tug than me and if they do, I will blatantly attempt to steal any real good ideas. Just joking. If you are still interested in my build, please drop in to the diesel tug thread on the Tug Forum.

Doonie.
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