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Author Topic: Buyer beware  (Read 6430 times)

steam up

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Buyer beware
« on: June 22, 2018, 08:54:30 pm »

A word of warning:  A friend recently purchased a gas tank from a well established firm, It arrived with a test certificate which indicated a  hydraulic test to 375 psi. Before instillation in his model launch we conducted a leak test. It failed dramatically not only was the gas valve failing to seat it had a major failure of the silver solder seam about half an inch long.
Clearly this tank can not have had even the most rudimentary visual examinations let alone the hydraulic claimed by the seller.
When challenged by my friend the seller claimed that the tank had been tested to 400 psi (not the difference from the certificate figure). It took a strong email from myself before the chap provided a refunded.
I suspect that these are Chinese manufactured with the retailer falsely producing test certificates implying that a hydraulic test has been undertaken.
Imagine the consequence of installing this tank in a boat and lighting up at the pond side!!!     

derekwarner

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2018, 01:31:30 am »

Steamup..........a number of years ago, I purchased a refillable gas tank which was manufactured by a well known British manufacturer

The fault noted on day 1 was that the needle valve spindle unscrewed completely from the valve body

The manufacturer offered to post over a miniature C-Clip [Cir-clip] which had been omitted during the assembly of the valve [by a sub-contract supplier]

I declined the kind offer and posted [at my cost back to the UK] as I assumed the tank would require a retest & recertification post repair

This was completed & the Manufacturer returned the tank with a new certificate & a few fittings ...

We understand the UK recently revised certification for miniature pressure containers......there is a lengthy thread either here or on PD's on the subject......

You may well find that any valves as attached to the pressure vessel are not an element of the certification...[I will re-reread these]

I understand this may not answer either of the points you raise, however some of your colleague members will be best to clarify this for you

Derek

PS.....here is Section 7 from the UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Volume 3
 
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Derek Warner

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Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
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derekwarner

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2018, 02:13:59 am »

The Mayhem time limit beat me Startup   <*< .........

Here is Section 8 of your same UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Volume 3 ......

This section would have failed a test for a tank under the Safeguard Test

Derek
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Derek Warner

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Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
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www.ils.org.au

derekwarner

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2018, 02:32:39 am »

Steamup .....this is a very serious issue....

1. You could consider asking our WEB owner Martin, if he considers it appropriate for you to name [in this thread]
the manufacturer involved
2. Offering any member considering the purchase of a gas tank, to contact you via PM for your comment of manufacturer etc

If I were considering such a purchase, I would certainly be most appreciative of any good/bad experiences of others...etc

Derek

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Kim

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2018, 02:37:42 am »

Derek, your to be commended in your knowledge of regulation i will give you that.


But,  cum-on -  OP no names or facts your not helping anyone just getting something out there that could cause good traders damage or at least caution when trying to make a sale.


I might be wrong but i seem to remember there  is history with you and a steam supplier,  i might not have framed that accurately enough for discussion and happy to be proven wrong.


Really guys, and you wonder why no more model shops .. there is so much blatant contempt, it's pabulum ....


My thoughts only .. lol
Regards,
Kim
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Martin (Admin)

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2018, 03:12:53 am »

Steamup .....this is a very serious issue....

1. You could consider asking our WEB owner Martin, if he considers it appropriate for you to name [in this thread]
the manufacturer involved
2. Offering any member considering the purchase of a gas tank, to contact you via PM for your comment of manufacturer etc

    Yes, option 2!    .... UK Law, Defamation Act 2013.....  'n all that!     {:-{  :police:
 
 
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Kim

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2018, 03:40:28 am »

Martin ,are you knowingly condoning potential defamation.
I do worry Martin, it would be lovely to float through life with some 'wishy washy' guidelines and all in the best interest & good intentions but i worry for you.
This is the age of information and a flippant remark now could see you in court,,, not a threat an observation with good intention .... hell look at a good club insurance policy for confirmation.
Regards,
Kim
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derekwarner

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2018, 04:49:16 am »

"i seem to remember there  is history with you and a steam supplier,  i might not have framed that accurately"

Kim........I do not understand your comment as above......[I do receive Christmas e-mails from quite a number of model steam manufacturers]

I think we all understand that Brand copy Engineering exists in most facets of engineering, however  Brand copy Certification for any products such as a pressure Vessel is Criminal

This is why you folk in UK have the UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Volumes 1, 2 & 3

From this, I do not understand or see the need to why you 'muddied the waters' here......I do naturally accept the direction from Martin as below

Derek
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tigertiger

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2018, 05:08:20 am »

Living in the land of 'knock offs' we have adopted the following strategy for items where quality/safety is important.
Buy from approved manufacturers, or suppliers who buy from approved manufacturers.
Buy from flagship stores when available. The price is slightly higher, but you get after sales service, and spares support in most cases.
If you are buying from China, avoid buying from an import agent (especially if based in China), do a search for the manufacturer, you can often buy direct from the factory via the manufacturers own online shop. Or you can email them and ask them who the EU sales agent is, if they have one. You can email in English keeping emails in short simple sentences (simple present tense and don't use modal verbs) and translation is easier and less ambigous for them.




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steam up

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2018, 05:56:34 am »

Thanks for the information on the valve I was aware of this regarding its its relationship to the hydraulic test. The real issue was the failed silver solder and the fraudulent test certificate.
I need to emphasis that this came from a long established source which made it all the more shocking.

ooyah/2

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2018, 12:44:29 pm »






Mark, thanks for posting your experience with this gas tank.
I don't understand the comments about Legal action if the supplier in questions name was posted, surely if the item was in default the supplier has no redress to the truth and it allows potential buyers who can't make the items themselves to avoid buying from this supplier.


 


George.
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steam up

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2018, 12:56:18 pm »

George I would be more than happy to provide the name of the supplier however I understand the nervousness of those who run such forums. I will be confronting this individual in a very public manner at the next engineering show he attends

KitS

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2018, 12:56:47 pm »


PS.....here is Section 7 from the UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Volume 3
 

As a hydraulic control systems engineer with many years experience I don't understand the logic of that test procedure.

If the tank is tested 'without fittings' it surely must have some blanks in place where the fittings would have been, otherwise it won't be able to maintain the test pressure. Those blanks will of necessity become part of the test, so why not do it with the fittings in place anyway?  {:-{
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Regards
Kit

steam up

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2018, 01:20:23 pm »

My only regret in this affair is that I failed to video the test. <*<

derekwarner

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2018, 01:35:15 pm »

KitS....if you have any concern with your UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Volumes 1, 2 & 3 , all I could suggest is for you to voice this concern at your Model Boating Club, & request that this concern together with supporting detail and qualification be presented to the Authority

Conversely, your same Model Boating Club registered Boiler Inspector may be able to resolve or answer your question

Derek
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KitS

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2018, 04:21:39 pm »

I'm not concerned as such as I haven't the faintest idea about steam power, but it just seems odd.

We always pressure tested our systems with the whole thing assembled as one piece, even that was a ring main 500 ft long, which enabled any leaks or pressure losses to be checked only once. Hydraulic practice at the time was 1.5 times the working pressure, so a 3000 psi system would be tested to 4500 psi, and held for 20 mins or so. That gave us time to do a visual check on all the bits and pieces in one go, with enough guys on the job of course.

I appreciate that we're talking about much smaller assemblies in the model scene and leaks can be observed fairly quickly, but I don't see the logic of testing just the boiler, and then maybe having to re-test it with all the fittings in place.
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Regards
Kit

big_bri

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2018, 04:37:09 pm »

Doesn't it say 'inspected' with fittings removed before testing?
Just my observation ok2
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Brian

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2018, 05:01:55 pm »

Normally pressure test equipment you have manafactured, with your name on it, any orafice blanked off with correct pressure tested blanks and plugs. The buyer should make sure any other parts fitted to it are pressure tested by the original manacturer........ .......anywho, if the tank has a split, due to? Is it poor quality control of has it been dropped, used as a football? I would hesitate in throwing insults at the guy in public. Ask politely for a refund/explanation......no joy then take it further............there could be a genuine reason.


Just my opinion.
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steam up

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2018, 06:27:37 pm »

The seam was not completed and had paint applied over the finished tank..The issue is that when this was explained to him his response was that HE had carried out a hydraulic test to 400psi ( not the 375) indicated on the certificate this was clearly a lie. The gas was screaming out of the tank no way had this undergone a test

pendlesteam

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2018, 09:29:56 pm »

Nearly had a heart attack when I read this in case it was one of mine - I have always tested mine to over 400psi but please do remember that the regulations quoted regarding hydraulic test do not apply to commercially made tanks, only to home made items. Thankfully not one of mine, but in rare circumstances it can happen that a SS joint will pass hydraulic and later leak. The flux can run in to a joint and can set like glass, temporarily sealing the joint which will leak later. I very much doubt this is the case here but it can happen.
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steam up

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2018, 09:39:01 pm »

That I am sure would have been a possible explanation if we had been talking about a pin hole side fault.This tank had a visable half inch gap in the seam the gas was pouring out.

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2018, 12:19:18 am »

Maybe members would  like to see a close up image of the tank if possible
CheersJohn
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tsenecal

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2018, 12:35:46 am »

steam up,

not knowing how your friend received the boiler, could any of the damage have been caused in shipping?
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tigertiger

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2018, 03:13:29 am »

As stated, there could be several reasons for the problem.
The main question is, was it resolved? The answer to that is yes.


The supplier is also aware that he now possibly has a QC problem, which could be supply side or in house; or a shipping/packaging problem. I am almost certain that this is being looked into. People who supply such equipment do care about safety, they are probably more aware of the risks than the average person.

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tigertiger

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Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2018, 03:45:51 am »

What follows is not a rant, but personal observations on a general habit of dealing with customer problems, having dealt with things from both sides.
These are purely my personal views, and nothing to do with Mayhem.


There is sometimes the tendency to see customer service problems as being the result of a supplier side crook, or crass idiot. That is very unusual, but it sometimes happens. Sometimes small suppliers let us down, because they have bitten off more than they can chew; but they do not aim to rip us off. Sometimes suppliers seem reluctant to give a refund (sometimes because of experience with customer induced damage-esp electronics), that goes with the territory, but they usually come around.


All suppliers have problems on occasions. Some deal with them better than others. However, taking punitive measures usually does more harm than good. I have heard of some people flaming suppliers widely on the internet and harassing the supplier and their family on social media. Many people would see this as unreasonable behaviour. It also makes suppliers (normal humans) reluctant to go out of the way to help resolve the issue. Suppliers who otherwise have had a good record lose potential customers (punishment), find it harder to make a living (punishment), and maybe stop what they are doing (punishment). The upshot of it is, other modelers are also punished, as with smaller turnover the range of goods and services is reduced, and when the supplier is gone, they are gone and their goods and services too.
Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions. There are some
problems that people should be made aware of. Personally I see nothing wrong with going on line and telling about a supplier problem, if it is a reasonable complaint aired reasonably. Sometimes suppliers go out of their way to fix things, and the customer who flamed them neglects to go back to the sites where the flaming was done and tell the world that the problem was happily resolved. Damage has now been done, and often no effort has been made to undo it. In the worst cases where customers have been unreasonable in their flaming, they are even less likely to go back and sort things out; either because they worked themselves up into such a frenzy that they cannot see straight, or they now feel foolish.


Just my 2c
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