Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Buyer beware  (Read 6431 times)

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,463
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2018, 04:49:27 am »

In my response to the original posting, I confirmed that I experienced a defect issue with my UK purchased gas tank......it was rectified amicably with the Principal of the sales supplier by direct contact, [I also understood that the defect with my gas tank would not have created a non acceptance under the Standard] so there was  no question accepting the validity of the Test Certificate as originally provided and as such did not require telling the world on any WEB site

Reading the subsequent postings by Steamup, it would appear that a refund has been made.....and this may be acceptable

The issue also suggested was one of fraudulent certification .......which is not acceptable

I concur with the comment from Nigel [Pendlesteam] in that Commercially produced gas tanks  [in accordance with UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Chapter 3 - Section 2.4] are exempt from this initial certification test [but are required for testing at each 5 yearly period]

This is one anomaly which has many Boiler Inspectors questioning the intent of this specific point. A number of commercial manufacturer's submit test examples of their product to the Authority.......in this case, if the quality of the hard soldering is deemed as acceptable by review and of Drawings, design and certification of Material Standards, together both visual and NDT x-ray of the joints etc, then this manufacturer is issued with a Class Certificate for the production of these specific pressure vessels

Pendlesteam are a registered commercial enterprise and market their products in accordance with the Regulation. However the proprietor in this case also advertises that both his steam boiler and gas tanks are supplied with a Certificate in accordance with the relevant Standard

From a customers perspective the issue of the Certification is a must.....so in this case I am sure Nigel would not have needed concern as his gas tank products are tested in accordance with the Standard

So this still asks the begging question, was the gas tank as originally found to be defective ...the subject of   fraudulent certification? .......

Test Certificates where correctly provided are Legal Tender in a Court of Law.....so are we sweeping this under the carpet? :o

Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2018, 07:35:16 am »

That is a well reasoned response and I feel a fair one.For what it is worth , I would personally never use this supplier again, I wish I had taken a photo or video of the fault, the suppliers initial response was very poor /arrogant It took a very strongly worded email pointing out that in my view this tank had not been test by him and that he had fraudulently signed a test certificate before he came around and provided a refund. Issue now resolved but as the caption for this threat says buyer beware.

Mark T

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,087
  • Location: Dudley in the Black Country
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2018, 02:23:21 pm »

Just my 2c here too.........


For me personally I find a suppliers after care just as important as the initial buying process.  There are very few places now where we can buy steam parts and I have no doubt that time will reduce this even further which is a shame.


I'm a firm believer in that things will and do go wrong, and for me personally its how the issue is resolved rather than the original issue.


I've personally seen pipework pass hydraulic tests only to fail quite shorty after due to a defective weld, even after x-ray inspection. 


As for the legal side of this I have no doubt than unless someone is actually hurt our legal system would have no interest in this issue what so ever.  I'm not saying this is right its just the way it is in the UK.  For the record I too would be very disappointed and would want the supplier to fix the issue but would I flame them - no


Personally I would explore every avenue before mentioning it on a forum so that the supplier has every opportunity to correct any problems. I'm sorry if other members of this forum think that I'm far too laid back but this has served me well throughout my life.


Like I say just my thoughts and I'm sorry that the OP has had issues with a suppled gas tank that should have worked correctly from the off.



Baldrick

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,414
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Nether Effingham (Perfideous Albion)
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2018, 05:47:58 pm »

While we are on the subject of "Caveat Emptor"  it may be relevant to suggest a browse of the forum pages here.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1424509-John-Hemmens


 seems the Americans have no inhibitions in airing their grievances.
Logged
And everyone thought it was IVAN who was terrible

tigertiger

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7,748
  • Location: Kunming, city of eternal springtime, SW China.
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2018, 06:10:05 pm »

While we are on the subject of "Caveat Emptor"  it may be relevant to suggest a browse of the forum pages here.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1424509-John-Hemmens

 seems the Americans have no inhibitions in airing their grievances.
 


And look at the tone of the posting. They are neither ranting, flaming, nor making wild accusations. The posts are sticking to the basic facts of what has and has not happened.
No problems there.
Logged
The only stupid question is the one I didn't ask

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2018, 06:17:59 pm »

I hope that you are not implying a rant on my part.

pendlesteam

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Burnley UK
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2018, 07:35:59 pm »

I hear no rantings here.....seriously impressed by all responses, very well reasoned. Mark, PM me if you need a gas tank that wont leak :-)
Logged

Baldrick

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,414
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Nether Effingham (Perfideous Albion)
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2018, 09:24:25 pm »

I hear no rantings here.....seriously impressed by all responses, very well reasoned. Mark, PM me if you need a gas tank that wont leak :-)


 Nigel.    I remember the bespoke burner you made for me, fantastic.  Even sent me an U tube clip showing the burner on full test
Logged
And everyone thought it was IVAN who was terrible

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2018, 09:29:04 pm »

Great customer service should be the expected norm sadly not always the case as this episode illustrates

rhavrane

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 883
  • Steam passionate collector
  • Location: Saint-Mandé, Val-de-Marne, France
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2018, 07:31:44 am »

Bonjour,
In France, for ou baby model boats, we have no legacy constraint, this is why I have ordered this original gas tank which hopefully has no leak:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDXPLvyf5i4&t=60s

Logged
Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
Membre du Modele Yacht Club de Paris http://mycparis.fr/
Membre de l'Offshore Club de Paris : http://site-ocparis.wifeo.com/
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rhavrane

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2018, 07:34:38 am »

A  very handsome tank indeed. :o

ooyah/2

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Glasgow
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2018, 03:37:58 pm »

Bonjour,
In France, for ou baby model boats, we have no legacy constraint, this is why I have ordered this original gas tank which hopefully has no leak:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDXPLvyf5i4&t=60s

Hi Raphael.
The gas tank that you have is not a new consideration as it has been done before.
However I would advise you never to bring it to the U.K. and try to use it in a boat  as you will be refused to use it.
The reason being that the end of the gas tank opposite the sight glass has been blown out under pressure during a hydraulic test and then flattened back out , not very successfully, no stays have been fitted.

It is clearly shown on your video which starts at 1 min into the show so you have to take it back to the start to see the damage.

I don't know what JMC hydraulic tested your tank to but for use in the U.K. it would need to be 400 p.s.i. ( 26.6 Bar )

For the large dia of your tank there would need to be stays fitted to stop the ends blowing.  I am surprised that JMC has made the tank and delivered it to you with the damaged end to you however this may be acceptable in France but not in the U.K.as Nigel of " Pendle Steam" has said.

I would advise you that the pressure gauge fitted looks like a max of 6 Bar, if so be very careful on a very hot day as a full tank of gas exposed to the Sun will very quickly jump to 185 p.s.i.  ( 12.33 Bar ) and blow your gauge.
If you don't believe me try filling your tank with gas and immerse it in a bowl of water at 20C and be very quick to remove it as the pressure will rise very fast and ruin your gauge.

I say this as I have done it and a new gauge was needed.

Regards

George.

Logged

pendlesteam

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Burnley UK
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2018, 08:55:29 pm »

Unless I am mistaken our good friend Raphael is showing us a gas tank not common in the UK which feeds liquid gas out of the tank, feeding from the bottom of the tank. The liquid gas is then heated by the burner and vapourised, akin to the old parafin blowlamps. They give a far higher burn time and can be filled almost full. They dont use typically use prop/but mix which means the tank is subject to less initial pressure - or I could be completely wrong!
Logged

rhavrane

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 883
  • Steam passionate collector
  • Location: Saint-Mandé, Val-de-Marne, France
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2018, 09:25:14 pm »

Bonjour George,
JMC is a professional who tests his tanks up to 20 bars. The bulgy bottoms of the tank are not damaged at all, they are  2 mm thick (!) and especially formed on a mold with a 5 ton press. I trust them more than the ones made by Regner for example (I also have several ones, they are thinner)

The 190 g or 360 g gas bottles type "Butagaz" are 0,8 mm thick and resist up to 30 bars.
I am sorry if none of my boats may come in U.K, especially these ones : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAe7nawts1s or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHG_VEPVVow  and could you swear that none of English steam passionates use this ?
I have many tanks of this form, some have already climbed up to 10 bars in the sun or too close of the boiler and the only problem I had was a disruption of the gas regulator.
Besides this, to complete Pendlesteam information, my genetal problem is that I use the gaz in its "gas phase" so my tanks, filled with 70/30 butane/propane liquid gas become colder and colder and I lose the gas pressure. As soon as I can (room), I try to use large diameter tanks to overcome this problem without installing any heater system difficult to control.
It would be great if you could come to Atlantica steam event like Martin Baylis for example  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN4Y3gLdp-U  (Martin, this video is in English  ok2 ) to meet other european steam passionates and share different experiences.
Logged
Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
Membre du Modele Yacht Club de Paris http://mycparis.fr/
Membre de l'Offshore Club de Paris : http://site-ocparis.wifeo.com/
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rhavrane

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2018, 10:00:05 pm »

I know a fellow steam lover who makes his own has tanks to a very similar design in the uk so not unique to France.

frazer heslop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 303
  • Location: Durham
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2018, 11:00:54 pm »

Peter Arnot described a twin valved gas tank.One valve has an extension pipe going to the bottom of the tank the other supplies vapour only
The burner has a pre heating coil so you fire up on gas and then switch over to liquid once the burner has warmed up. I find it suffers less than other tanks from the cooling effect
The design appeared in his V4 or V2 build in one of the Model boat comics
I simply dont like the idea of a glass gauge glass on a gas tank is it to the UK recommendations Iv no idea as Im a little out of date. I appreciate that the poster resides and uses his kit in France and my likes or dislikes are of no consequence
Is there a copy of the new recommendations online just so I can get upto date or at least find out what has changed if anything
As to the leaking gas tank it makes me wonder if the new /old recommendations are of any use if manufacturers can fudge safety documentation it just seems to make the whole thing a toothless bit of bureaucracy

Logged

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2018, 07:17:42 am »

I think the last sentence just about sums it up a typical document drawn up my a comity

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 23,361
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2018, 11:45:54 am »


Do any of you gentlemen follow Keith Appleton's you channel?

A MODEL STEAM BOAT NAMED EDITH - PART #3 ( Boiler test )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbCps73R-d0

Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!" -  Visit the Mayhem FaceBook Groups!  &  Giant Models

steamboatmodel

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 346
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2018, 06:48:19 pm »


Do any of you gentlemen follow Keith Appleton's you channel?

A MODEL STEAM BOAT NAMED EDITH - PART #3 ( Boiler test )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbCps73R-d0

I have been following him for a while now, very good.
Gerald.
Logged
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors--and miss. Lazarus Long

rhavrane

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 883
  • Steam passionate collector
  • Location: Saint-Mandé, Val-de-Marne, France
Re: Buyer beware
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2018, 07:11:07 pm »

Bonjour Martin,
I do and, when I tried to give an opinion based on my experience which wass different of his one, I have had the impression that he did not appreciate them. So, I do not share with him anymore. For me, being a specialist should be accompanied by more humility, and I make it clear that this is my personal opinion.
Logged
Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
Membre du Modele Yacht Club de Paris http://mycparis.fr/
Membre de l'Offshore Club de Paris : http://site-ocparis.wifeo.com/
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rhavrane
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.106 seconds with 22 queries.