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Author Topic: Flat Bottoms  (Read 3826 times)

GG

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Flat Bottoms
« on: January 21, 2020, 12:48:17 pm »

Before anyone starts, this is nothing to do with anatomy!


I was out at the weekend testing a new model as it was fine and calm, if a little cool and misty which is maybe why I had the lake to myself.


The model was another airboat but this time the power was "upped" with a brushless motor.  It went well and displayed the usual airboat characteristics of sliding around in wide turns at full speed (the air rudder producing a noticeable rotation on the model but it still tried to move in the original direction!).  Too much rudder and the hull could "dig in" and bring the model to rest with a large amount of spray but never rolling over.  Great fun to sail yet in a simple to build and economical package, in fact most of the materials came out of the scrap box.


Whilst wiping the model dry at home, it suddenly occurred to me that these flat bottomed hulls could offer surprisingly good performance.  This was the third such airboat I'd designed and built plus a similar water-jet powered model with the same flat bottomed hull shape and all had sailed in a similar fashion.


Vic Smeed once published a plan of a powerboat with a flat bottom, although he did design the aft sections to be slightly convex in order to improve its turning performance.  His reasoning being that under reasonably calm conditions a flat hull bottom had good planing performance. It might be a little more "bouncy" but crew comfort is something models don't have to consider.  If conditions worsened whilst sailing, when a "V bottom" would have the advantage, you could recover the model in seconds unlike full sized boats.


I suspect a trawl through back numbers of the Model Boats magazine would uncover a few more flat bottomed and fast model designs.  The only contribution I can make to their design is to keep them them as light as possible with sharp corners at the junction between the hull bottom and side surfaces.  This ought to help the model plane easily and run cleanly.


Good flat bottom sailing!


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redpmg

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2020, 01:42:06 pm »

Would a small skeg or short keel at the rear of the hull minimise the sliding a bit Glynn ? Or is there a risk of capsizing?
Most of Les Rowells Aerokit designs were fairly flat sectioned at the rear - and most of those were pretty fast with the right motor. Patrol Boat with a hull cribbed directly from his FPL design gets up on the plane easily enough with a normal 400 brushed motor & 7.2v Ni-cad buggy pack (all quite heavy) . Seen one with a small brushless motor and 2 cell Lipo which practically flies.........not bad for a 19 1/2" flat rear sectioned hull.
The Sea Breeze "Vintage" model from SLEC looks like it could be pretty fast too. (That one would seem to be based on the old Ohm Maid design from MB)
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chas

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2020, 02:01:43 pm »

I seem to remember that Vic Smeeds piranha  hull design was a mainstay of speed models for quite a long time. This had a hull only slightly curved from the flat, just as you suggest. I'm not sure it would be good for an air boat though but it might be fun to try.
Chas.















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DaveM

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2020, 02:18:42 pm »

I built one of GG's original 400-powered Skimmers from the freebie plan [RCM&E?]. It was great fun but, as the man says, tended to rotate without actually changing its direction to begin with when rudder was applied. I found that throttling back a touch before applying rudder made a world of different. I never did work out why that should be. Not to be out-done, my friend Phil also built one and flipped it upside-down, then steered it back to the bank with the motor running underwater!
DaveM
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chas

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2020, 03:45:12 pm »

I love that idea Dave, does he hold the record now, for the model boat with the largest waterscrew? 😁.
Chas

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GG

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2020, 04:05:19 pm »

Redpmg
[size=78%]         [/size][/size] I am reluctant to fit a skeg or keel under my airboat models.  A couple of strakes were tried on one and might have improved straight running but only seemed to drag the speed down on turns.  A turn fin, as once popular on fast hulls, could be tried but I suspect it would just increase the chance of "digging in" when turning.[size=78%]


As DaveM points out, you learn to accommodate the quirks by adjusting your driving techniques.  In fact, with enough rudder throw and the motor on "tick-over" the model can almost be made to rotate on the spot.  This is very handy when your brushless ESC doesn't have reverse and you have sailed into a tight spot!


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malcolmfrary

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2020, 09:24:44 am »

Can't see an underwater skeg helping, but maybe a fixed fin in front of the air rudder might help?  And/or angle the pivot line of the rudder?  Just thinking that when you want a plane to turn, it is usually a combination of aileron and rudder to cause it to lean into a turn.  Angling the rudder on an airboat "might" counteract the tendency to lean the wrong way in a turn.
It might be that when pivoting, the mass of the airboat wants to carry on in its original direction, and the airscrew takes its time regaining traction to send it in the new direction.  Again, thinking out loud .
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redpmg

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2020, 11:40:24 am »

Malcom - you could be right - same type of inertia that's killed many pilots pulling out of a dive - although the aircraft is leveled out its still descending at the same rate for quite a distance before climb out - not sure which one of Newtons 'laws' would apply there.
Glynn - what difference does having dual rudders make - have seen a few 1/1 with them ? Airboats are problematic here - seldom have a day where the wind is below 15 knots here - gets up to 30 or 40 quite quickly out of nowhere too.There is a very different shaped hull I have seen a few times on 1/1 boats - combines a rounded bottom with a flat surface around the perimeter. Will post a couple of pics of a model hull when the file size has been reduced - very fast with minimum power - flat chines / transom seem to help turns
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tonyH

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2020, 01:09:07 pm »

Just going back to the original GG post, Vic Smeed suggested adding a couple of rails to his "Spurtster" jet powered model (Taplin Twin!)
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GG

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2020, 03:44:19 pm »

Malcomfrary,
            Not sure there is any mileage in bringing aircraft ideas into airboat handing.  Aircraft operate in a 3D environment whereas airboats operate in 2D.  Or, at least they ought to unless you want them to become airborne or dive under water a'la submarine?


The side forces on a deflected air rudder, being above the models Center of Gravity, will always cause a model airboat to lean out of the turn.  Assuming the "fixed fin in front of the air rudder" you mention is to be on the hull bottom, then being below the C of G, this could well do the same thing.


Redpmg
          Yes, a bodies Inertia is what makes it resist any change in Velocity (Velocity describing both speed and direction of motion).  You can work all three of Newton's Law's of Motion into steering an airboat but his First Law might be most applicable here.


Once the motor has converted electrical energy in to the Kinetic energy, the models Inertia wants to keep it going in a straight line.  The only way to change this is with a sideways push towards the center of the turn you desire (i.e. centripetal force).  In a displacement hull this sideways force can be created by water pushing on the side of the hull (if you think about it the water rudder in this situation is actually pushing out of the circle, bit like a conventional aircraft where the elevator pushes down to make the aircraft go up).


In this respect an airboat has a problem, the deflected air rudder has a force acting on it out of the circle, not the direction we want.  The propellers thrust vector is now however angled inwards and the radial component of the thrust can create the desired centripetal force.  I suspect that at small rudder deflections the two forces could well balance out, this explaining why the model is reluctant to turn even though it is clearly slewed away from the direction it is traveling.  It might also explain DM's  (and mine) observation that easing off the throttle before applying the rudder helps. The "wrong way" sideways force on the rudder ought to be reduced and, traveling slower, could put more of the hull into the water to create a "useful" force towards the center of the circle?  There again it could just be slower so less tendency for the hull to "dig in"?


To be honest, I'm not sure if twin air rudders would improve things on model airboats.  There may be good reasons why the full-size use them though. Also, the full size need to consider ride comfort and safety.


tonyH,
        Ah....... Vic Smeed's "Spurtster" model!  Must try and find the original article.  I've only built one fast waterjet model, the electrically powered Scudder ( Model Boats Winter Special 2013).  It's handling was much the same as the airboats , appearing to skid around in turns with the bows pointing inwards but it didn't show the tendency to "dig in" during tight turns.


And finally, I could remove the air rudder and replace it with a water rudder, but that would make it hard to sail on ice, snow and damp grass.  Anyway, I quite enjoy sailing models that "keep me on my toes!".


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tonyH

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2020, 07:32:52 pm »

Just as an Aide Memoire! Not quite flat but the basic principle was the same.
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redpmg

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2020, 08:31:18 am »

Thanks for the reply Glynn - seems pretty clear . Suppose its the same as aircraft - there is no 'cure' - although as you have found slowing it down helps.
This is the hull shape from a cheapie from a Maplins Xmas special - whole outfit cost less than its battery would seperately......... very fast with a 7.2v 2/3 AA battery and rubber prop. Might be interesting to try the hull shape on an airboat as the hull seems to skim the water anyway - remains pretty level at speed
Seen full size hulls the same except the flat portion is slightly angled downward and a set of model frames on the internet somewhere
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2020, 09:08:31 am »

Malcomfrary,
            Not sure there is any mileage in bringing aircraft ideas into airboat handing.  Aircraft operate in a 3D environment whereas airboats operate in 2D.  Or, at least they ought to unless you want them to become airborne or dive under water a'la submarine?



Glynn Guest
Once it is skittering across the surface, it isn't really a boat, everything operating on it is in air.  The fin suggestion was not meant to indicate anything underwater - more something in air between the back of the drivers neck and the leading edge of the fin, probably in front of the prop.  Think D type Jag back end.  When the craft has started rotating, but is still on its original course, the air resistance of the fin "might" slow down the motion in that direction, it "might" also reduce the tendency of the new leading edge to dip.
As everybody else has suggested, fins and strakes on the underside will do their best to ensure that it carries on in a straight line.  When rotated, they will add drag under the water, causing the underside to slow down, and the hull to tip.  Thats only theory, and since theory and rarely practice agree, it is often the case that when they do, both are wrong.
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GG

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2020, 11:51:52 am »

Malcolmfrary,
            Have to disagree with you, an airboat is still a marine vehicle (i.e. a boat) when skimming along.  It's in contact with the water and if you take away the water it's going to fall downwards.


As for a fixed side area behind the driver, being behind the C of G, it would probably attempt to reduce the rotation of the hull making turns harder to initiate.  Although, being above the C of G any side force on it might reduce the tendency for the hull sides to "dig-in" when sliding at an angle to its motion.  Possibly airboat models with more side area, greater freeboard and cabin/superstructure, could show this effect?


All interesting stuff and well worth investigating but now I've got to go and fly a real model airplane.


Glynn Guest
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SailorGreg

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2020, 01:37:20 pm »

I have built an airboat with an aircraft-style fin, a fixed part with a rudder hinged off the rear edge.  The motor is mounted on the front of the fin. A fellow club member has done something similar, and he uses a much smaller rudder than would be needed for a fully moving one, and steers extremely well.  My own rudder is about 2/3 the size of what I guess would otherwise be needed, and also steers well and predictably.  But this is entirely subjective, no rigorous comparison has been done.  However, if all-moving rudders were the best solution, why don't aircraft use them?

Greg

GG

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2020, 03:34:27 pm »

SailorGreg,
          Hard, well impossible actually, to comment on the steering behavior of your airboat model without more details and, if possible, some photos.


As for aircraft not using all-moving rudders, well some did, the North American A5 Vigilante and F107 immediately come to mind.  Probably the fixed fin and rudder has proven adequate enough for most aircraft.  And, as discovered when attempting create the early supersonic aircraft, all-moving tails were essential and now commonplace.


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KitS

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2020, 03:59:13 pm »

Our own TSR2 had an all moving fin too.
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Kit

SailorGreg

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2020, 05:38:18 pm »

I stand corrected.  :-))

RST

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2020, 06:06:07 pm »

Blackbird had an all moving tailfin I think. Something to do with "snap reaction" in case the tip of the supersonic cone moved away from an engine inlet and caused a massive yaw all of a sudden. Otherwise no need for such huge forces for steering on aircraft normally.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2020, 05:55:18 pm »

Anybody remember those YouTube videos involving airboats and hovercraft nearly steering on ice, snow and wet grass?  Sort of feeds the notion that water, as such, is not the determing factor.  I have a sneaking feeling that flying surfaces were intended to combat the loss of control due to compressibility around supersonic speeds.
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JimG

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Re: Flat Bottoms
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2020, 09:01:17 pm »

Anybody remember those YouTube videos involving airboats and hovercraft nearly steering on ice, snow and wet grass?  Sort of feeds the notion that water, as such, is not the determing factor.  I have a sneaking feeling that flying surfaces were intended to combat the loss of control due to compressibility around supersonic speeds.
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All moving control surfaces have been used since the early days of powered flight. The Wright brothers used an all moving forward horizontal surface for control of pitch. Fokker used an all moving fin on the Eindecker. They did prove very useful to counteract control reversal when breaking the sound barrier.
Jim
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