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Author Topic: Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship  (Read 3899 times)

RipSlider

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Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« on: October 06, 2008, 10:55:48 am »

Colin.

I read with interest last night your article in MMI or Model boating ( sorry, was reading both at the same time and forget which one ) on the scandinavian 17th Centery ship that was raises in 1961 having sunk after only sailing a mile. Vasa I think she was named?

One of your comments was regarding the fact that it was not  very sea-worthy design, and that you thought maybe it pushed the limits of 17th Centery ship building a bit to far.

I was wondering if you could fill in a bit more of the detail about what was the issue with the design. The images in the article seem to show - to my completely non-expert eye at least - and I'll emphasize I know absolutely nothing at all about the design of old sailing ships - a fairly standard shape.

I got the feeling there is an interesting story there, but maybe you didn't have space to go into it?

Could you provide a few more details, or point me somewhere that has them already?

Good article by the way!

Thanks
Steve

Topic renamed. - Martin.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 11:15:36 am »

Steve, basically it was a stability (or instability) issue. The ship was built very high and narrow with insufficient ballast and too much weight above water in terms or armament and decoration etc. This was identified before she set sail but the king expected to see her sail out of harbour so everyone crossed their fingers and hoped. The wind simply blew her over!

Extract from the Vasa website http://www.vasamuseet.se/sitecore/content/Vasamuseet/InEnglish/History.aspx below:

Why did Vasa sink?

In the 17th century there were no scientific methods of calculating a
ship's stability. It was not uncommon that warships heeled over and
sank. Their cargo - the guns - were placed relatively high up in the
ship, whereas merchant-vessels stored their cargo in the hold, ie in
the bottom of the ship.

Instead of using calculations, the 17th century shipbuilders used so
called reckonings, which recorded certain ship-measurements.
However, the reckonings used in building the Vasa were intended for
smaller ships with only one gundeck. The Vasa was built differently.
She had two gundecks with heavy artillery (when the norm was to
place lighter guns on the upper gundeck). The standard rules
obviously did not apply here.

Deep down in the Vasa several tons of stone were stored as ballast.
They were meant to give the ship stability. However, the main reason
for the Vasa capsizing was that the ballast was not enough as
counterweight to the guns, the upper hull, masts and sails of the ship.
In the inquiries after the Vasa disaster it was revealed that a stability
test had been performed prior to the maiden voyage. Thirty men had
run back and forth across the Vasa's deck when she was moored at
the quay. The men had to stop after three runs, well before the test
could be completed - otherwise, the ship would have capsized. Present
was Admiral Klas Fleming, one of the most influential men in the
Navy. His only comment to the failed stability test was "If only His
Majesty were at home!" After that he let the Vasa make her maiden
voyage.

Who, then, were to blame for the disaster?

Admiral Fleming. Partly. He could have stopped the ship after the
stability test. On the other hand, the ship was already complete and
the king was waiting impatiently in Polish Prussia.

King Gustavus Adolphus. Partly. He was anxious to acquire a ship with
as many heavy guns as possible. He had also approved the Vasa's
dimensions and was keen to have her completed rapidly.

The shipbuilder Henrik Hybertsson. Partly. Although he built the hull
too narrow, he was a skilled shipbuilder who had previously built many
good ships. His unexpected death the previous year just complicated
matters.

The captain Söfring Hansson. According to a new theory the capsizing
of the Vasa may be blamed on the captain. He sailed a brand new
ship with open gunports. The Vasa sank when water gushed in through
the lower gunports! It would have been wiser to test the new ship on
her maiden voyage with closed gunports.

However, the inquiries showed that no one could really be blamed for
the disaster. The main reason being the insufficient theoretical know
how of the period. The Vasa was something new - a military
experiment. After the Vasa, many successful ships were built with two,
three and even four gundecks. The shipbuilders learned from their
mistakes with the Vasa and improved later designs.
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RipSlider

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Re: Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2008, 12:42:21 pm »

Thanks for this.

Is this a freak occurane, or did these "reckonings" lead to this sort of thing happening fairly frequently?

Also, as you were dicussing the fact that there are models available, am I right in thinking that becuase the model guns would be light weight, a model might not have as big an issue?


Thanks again

Steve
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2008, 12:51:04 pm »

Steve, they tended to learn by experience. Evolve an existing design to see if they could improve it. Sometimes they didn't.

The models I mentioned are all static non working ones. Whenever you build a model sailing ship you have stability issues to overcome as the hull volume (and displacement) scales down by the cube but the sail area only scales down by the square. So all models are hopelessly "overcanvassed" in normal wind situations and it's a rare sailing model that doesn't need a false keel to make it practical.

Colin
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victorian

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Re: Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2008, 02:46:29 pm »

I had the chance to visit the Vasa museum just last month. I've always known about Vasa, but nothing can prepare you for the scale or the completeness of the real thing. This ship is not really a restoration - it's just preserved. I certainly didn't know that when she was salvaged, she was floated into drydock on her own keel - the oldest ship (by far) ever to be refloated. (Sorry Colin if you have mentioned this in your article which I havn't seen).

I purchased the 4" thick tome "Archeology of the Vasa" (about £50) from the gift shop and good read it is. While the authors obviously agree that she was unstable, they point out that her proportions were not much different to other successful ships of the period. However, she was probably heavier than intended, placing the lower gunports too close to the water and perhaps underballasted as well, reducing stability. And of course she was overgunned, perhaps because the intended guns wern't available, increasing top weight.

All in all, very unfortunate at the time, and especially for the poor devils inside (one man was found 333 years later trapped under a gun carriage!) but for us a miraculous opportunity to see an actual medieval warship in original condition, virtually complete, and impressive beyond words. If you get the chance, do go to the Vasa.

Here's some pics:



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Colin Bishop

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Re: Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2008, 05:40:18 pm »

You did well to get those pics Victorian. It's really dark in there!

Colin
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craftysod

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Re: Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2008, 07:06:41 pm »

With the guy in the first pic,you can see exactly the size of the ship and what colin said how top heavy it was
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George Steele

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Re: Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2008, 04:23:35 pm »

How about going through the scale factors step by step to see how and if an in-the-water modeler can generate more stability so as to get a four foot model to sail half decently? Say the ship is 100 feet long and the moddeller wants a sailing model four feet long. The big ships sail area is BSSA, the model's sail area is BSSA x 1/25 (1/25) or 0.0016th of the big ship's sail area. The big ship's heeling moment to put the deck edge down to the water is BSSHM x 1/25 x 1/25 x 1/25 = 0.04 x 0.04 x 0.04=0.000064BSSHM. etc. but how does one calculate the righting moment needed on the four foot model so that it acts the same way as the big ship?  How deep must the added deep fin be with how much weight on the bottom?
            Thanks
                              George Steele
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dreadnought72

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Re: Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2008, 04:45:45 pm »

George, think of it like a vertical seesaw.

The real ship has mass in the form of ballast at the lower end. It pivots around its centre of buoyancy, and the force at the upper end of the seesaw is provided by the wind on the sails.

When the ship heels, the mass moves off the vertical axis and provides a righting moment.

As you've noted, in a model, the mass shrinks by the scale factor cubed, while the sail area shrinks by the scale factor squared. Net result is that the sail area/mass ratio is dropping by the scale factor.

To counter this, you need to increase the mass (by the scale factor) or increase the moment arm of the mass (by adding a fin equal in length to the scale factor times by the distance the ballast is below the centre of buoyancy). Or, preferably, a bit of both, since it's often difficult to reef sails in a model.

Andy #1963#
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Enjoying every minute sailing W9465 Mertensia

Colin Bishop

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Re: Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2008, 05:03:58 pm »

But of course if you make the fin too deep you may not be able to launch and recover the boat easily....
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George Steele

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Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2008, 08:25:30 pm »

OK maybe some numbers would help. Do you have (1) the load waterline length (feet please), (2) the displacement (cubic feet) and (3) the sail area- all plane sail (in sq. feet) (4) the location of the approximate center of the sail area (height in feet above the waterline), (5) the approximate center of gravity  of the ship without the guns (on a model the guns will be light wood), (6) the Height of the center of the lateral profile of the ship above water (as it contributes to the heeling moment due to wind pressure) (7) the area of the lateral profile of the above water portion of the hull. (8) the location of the  geometric center of the lateral profile of the above water portion of the hull?
     Maybe this is all too complex. Perhaps the only practical method is to build the model and adjust the depth of the false keel and the amount of lead thereon.
     Do you have model maker's plans of the ship? What do they cost plus shipping? (In dollars)
            Thanks
                              George Steele
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George Steele

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Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2008, 07:28:49 pm »

Upon reflection, I think that my post (reply 14) sounds like a grumpy old man. Please excuse me. I will go back to working on my current plan to design a simplified MAYFLOWER  hull and experiment to see how much lead  and how deep a fin are required to get a good sailing model.     George Steele
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George Steele

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Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2008, 05:11:55 pm »

I can't seem to let this go even tho my last physics class was in 1951-2/ Martin Becker in Historical Sailing Ships Remote Controlled fromTraplet tries to explain the analysis.  My understanding is that a model 3 feet long of a ship 75 feet long has a linear ratio of 3/75 or 1/25. Further, the sail area declines by the square of 1/25 or 0.04 x 0.04 = 0.0016 and the heeling moment since it is an area time a lever arm is 1/25x1/25x1/25 or 0.000064 and finally the righting moment is a voluming times a lever thus the linear scale is quadrupled.
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George Steele

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Re: VASA, the 17th Century ship
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2008, 03:19:17 pm »

Going at this again I take all the numbers to mean that I will need a fin keel almost 24 inches deep?/?
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