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[Arrow5]

I agree wholeheartedly with BarryM`s post.  MPBA should be made aware that this topic is being discussed here in an open forum where democracy rules. They are free to post another side of the story if they wish. It will not be seen to anti anything if Mayhem allows free and unfettered discussion on all matters model boating.

[Colin Bishop]

I too have no problems with civilised and reasoned debate even where strong views are held, look at the recent one on weathering for example. However, if you look back on this topic you will see a lot of comments by people who don't have a clue what the MPBA is about and wouldn't join it anyway but still feel that they have a "right" to an opinion. There are also a number of generalisations such as references to "little Hitlers". These comments add nothing to the debate, inflame feelings and simply smack of individuals wishing to join in any dust up that's going.

Ernie is clearly unhappy about the way he has been treated but he has not resorted to over the top ranting, he has set out his views in a reasoned manner. I just wish some of the other posters had done the same instead of reacting in such a predictable knee jerk manner. That way there might actually be some chance of resolving the problem rather than polarising it. If MPBA NEC members are indeed following this topic i don't think they would be very impressed with the standard of debate with many people not even trying to get their facts straight but piling in regardless.

I still don't think Mayhem is the right platform for commenting on internal MPBA matters but I do accept the point made by Ernie and others that as the MPBA doesn't have an online Forum then it may be the next best thing.

If you have something constructive and useful to say based on a bit of knowledge of the subject then say it, otherwise best to keep quiet.

Colin

[Leovilla]

Colin is 100% correct.   Please do not get personal about any individual.  Comment on the fundamental principles at stake.

I would welcome comment from one of the National Executive officers but it may be a tad difficult for them to do so in the circumstances; for that reason i have stuck to the facts and not embellished anything.

The meeting today may result in something positive as far as the FE section is concerned but I doubt my position will be resolved today.

 Later this evening I will be getting an update on the meeting and will post comments.

 You may want to know that the MPBA Fast Electric Section has its own Forum sanctioned by the MPBA, currently anyone can log on and join it but in the very near future it will be restricted to MPBA members only something I agree with.

 I have one problem with that forum,  I am banned from registering on it!   Yes is true- banned before I have done or said anything on it- democracy?

[nhp651]

"you will see a lot of comments by people who don't have a clue what the MPBA is about and wouldn't join it anyway but still feel that they have a "right" to an opinion."

I do believe that that is the bedrock of "Democracy" and what two world wars were fought for, Colin.

The freedom of speech in this country is more valuable than all the jewels in the world, and from what I have heard from Ernie, HE is being totally stifled!

[w3bby]

A good starting point is to view the constitution. As it does not appear to be on the website where can one view the MPBA constitution?
I would suspect that, similar to the Swedish organisation, what may be disciplined/punished and how is well laid out. Here disciplinary measures range from a letter to disqualification. The maximum period of disqualification is one year, this is only from taking part in competition or displays within the Swedish organisation. There is nothing that allows them to deny membership.
Maybe the most important thing is that any incident likely to cause an issue must be reported within a set period of time from the alleged offence or there can be no action. There is also a system of appeal built in.

Let me just say that I find a denial of membership to be undemocratic. I find denial of appeal undemocratic.

Any organisation that cannot bear and reply to criticism needs to look seriously at the way it is run and administered.

[BarryM]

I too have no problems with civilised and reasoned debate even where strong views are held, look at the recent one on weathering for example. However, if you look back on this topic you will see a lot of comments by people who don't have a clue what the MPBA is about and wouldn't join it anyway but still feel that they have a "right" to an opinion. There are also a number of generalisations such as references to "little Hitlers". These comments add nothing to the debate, inflame feelings and simply smack of individuals wishing to join in any dust up that's going.
 
 Colin

Colin,
By all means delete the remarks of those who have overstepped the mark intentionally or unintentionally - I don't think too many would quarrel with that - but as far as I can see, leovilla has made his point without resort to such.

Usually my bovine excreta detection alarm starts ringing when people talk about 'rights' while overlooking 'responsibilities' but if freedom of opinion is to be curtailed because of the risk of upsetting somebody or something whose back should be broad enough to stand up to criticism, then we are heading down the wrong road.

Closer to home, I have both agreed and disagreed with Bryan Young on this forum to the point where I am sure we have both muttered to ourselves about the '**!!'%***' who knows *%!%!&!!** . That would not stop me offering to buy him a pint if we met; we each have our say and that's that. I wouldn't expect him to be censored for fear it would offend somebody and vice versa. The principle is the same.

Regards
Barry M

PS I can't believe I've offered to buy a Geordie a pint; must be getting old.  
 

[Colin Bishop]

Neil, there is a difference between free speech and what is akin to rabble rousing. If you want an opinion to be taken seriously then it should be well argued from a knowledge of the facts. Also we need to be looking at what this topic is trying to achieve. Ernie wanted to air his situation on Mayhem because he feels he is not being given the opportunity to do so through what might be deemed the "proper channels". I can understand that having now heard more of the circumstances. His object is to get a "fair hearing" with a view to having the decision to terminate his MPBA membership rescinded. The best chance of that, as he makes quite clear himself, is to present his arguments in a dispassionate, objective and non personalised way and he has done this. People coming in with the attitude "Yeah, Ernie, we're with you all the way mate, these control freaks need to be taught a lesson!" are damaging his case by association and simply giving an excuse to those who are opposed to Ernie to discount the arguments he is making.

I am not in a position to take sides as I have not read Ernie's original comments nor related them to the MPBA Constitution which I have got stashed away somewhere. At the moment we have only heard from Ernie and it would certainly be interesting and useful to have a response from the MPBA on what basis his membership has been denied. Natural justice certainly requires that there should be a fair hearing and right of appeal. I don't think the MPBA website is all that brilliant but I think that stems from the fact that they have problems in getting people to take on these jobs. Maybe some of us should offer our services to help out in that respect rather than standing on the sidelines running things down. I think we also need to bear in mind that we are taliking about problems in one MPBA Section only here and it sounds as if some action is taking place today which will shift the situation one way or another. Maybe we sould await the outcome of this emergency section meeting and see how things go from there.

Colin
 

[Colin Bishop]

Barry, thanks for you comments. By posting my own views on the topic in ordinary member mode I cannot be seen to moderate it in any way. Other Mods are monitoring it though! 

Colin

[Leovilla]

Colin.   The remarks that have got me banned were nothing more than these;

 I said that in many ways the MPBA had ceased to serve much purpose and was disfunctional in the way it operates. I went on to say that it needed an overhaul to bring it into the 21st century if it was to thrive instead of withering on the vine.  At no time did I attack any official of the MPBA.

 A small example.   In seeking to find out the origins of a practice I spoke to then general secretary and asked if the records could be checked. The reply was interesting to say the least- no records were available.  (At that time I was the secretary of the FE section).

 Theres much more but I think you get the picture.

Ernie.     

[omra85]

I certainly agree with Colin's reasoning and feel that we should await the outcome of the EGM.
In the meantime, I would be interested in feedback from Mayhem members, who probably cover more 'areas' of model boating than any organisation, what they feel is necessary (or desirable) from a National Association.  If this too, is presented in an objective way, as the current debate is, it may be possible that current officers of the MPBA may read and consider the suggestions.
As Colin says, please do not personalise things - or respond in a tabloid headline manner.

My "wish list" would be -
1. Representation - in all aspects of model boating, with no particular 'aspect' being missed or deliberately ignored. This would be to all bodies and oranisations from a local council trying to ban a boat club to true representation on NAVIGA.  I realise that much of this is already carried out but I would wish it to be far more unbiased.

2. Governance - fair, impartial and properly executed rules which comply with current legal practice whilst addressing basic human rights and responsibilities.

3. Insurance - most clubs and sections carry their own insurance which has usually been obtained at a lower cost than the one offered to MPBA members. Surely, with strength of numbers, it should be the other way round. If it were (and should be) so cheap that clubs could not 'undercut' the cost, this would encourage MPBA membership.  There is also  the thorny question of "double indemnity" where, if you have club AND MPBA insurance it is possible that, in the event of a claim, NEITHER company will pay out!

4. National competitions - again, this is something already carried out, but without equality. Some sections have excellent Championships, other are hardly catered for at all. I also realise that some members do not take part in any competitions, therefore the administration and expense should be proportional to those that wish to participate.

5. Communications - mention has already been made of the creation of an MPBA forum. Propwash would also benefit from an update with a bit more "pzzazz" (you know what I mean). The biggest issue I have is that almost ALL communication is very introverted and only gets through to the current members. In it's own interests, the MPBA should try to reach NON members. An informative and INTERESTING website would help here. Some may know that, with no knowledge of websites, I took on the role of OMRA webmaster. It seems to have been fairly well received and OMRA membership is certainly on the way up. I can't maintain two so will not be offering the MPBA my services but I stand as proof that, if I can do it, then any non-IT person could master it!  I also feel that more could be done by the modelling press. A request for information or an article is not the same as actually looking for a "story".

I don't think any of these suggestions are revolutionary and most are already covered to a greater or lesser degree but I think that the ideas may benefit the MPBA if they carry out a good (and much needed) analysis of what the association is 'all about'.

Danny


  

[Reade Models]

What happened to the concept of a Quorum (a minimum representative cross-section of membership) having to be present before a VOTE on any issue could be taken?  It used to work well for most clubs and associations and ensured some basis for democratic decision making?

In light of what appears to be happening, that concept seems to have been overlooked somehow?

Malc

[Colin Bishop]

Some good points there Danny. The only further comment I would make at the moment is regarding insurance. There is another thread on here somewhere which related to the Beale Park events and threw up some interesting variations on the type of insurance provided to clubs. It seems that in some cases your club insurance will only cover you for club events or sailing on the recognised club water. Fine if all your sailing is local but not so good if you want to visit elsewhere. MPBA and MYA Insurance is particular to the member and is also useful if you belong to the MPBA as an individual and not through a club. Insurers are a funny lot with all sorts of weird restrictions for no apparent reason. I've just had to change my house contents insurance to another provider because the previous one doesn't do retired people. Club insurance may frequently be all you need, but do check the small print as insurers will use it to weasel out of their obligations in many instances. (Probably as a result of a lot of people putting in false claims!)

Colin

[Leovilla]

I have had some feed back from todays EGM;   Its appears the section survives but my nomination was blocked by the MPBA Executive officers on the basis I am not a member. The politics I referred to earlier.

 I find it a less than ideal state of affairs that the one person who precipitated the removel/resignation of the previous section Chairman has himself, suppoorted by his own club wo attended in numbers, been elected the new Chairman. These two people had been part of the cause for the meeting.  I guess thats  democracy at work you just make sure you have your supporters turn up in suffcient numbers. Its pretty certain that this appointment will not heal the rift with the south east members of the racing community many of whom have left or are leaving the MPBA.

 My positioin has not been resolved because it was not discussed because I am not a member. I will be pursuing my case against the MPBA simply because I believe in natural justice and what has been done to me is certainly not that.

  I suggest the Moderators lock this thread now and I thank them for allowing it to run a little longer than they initially wanted.

[Roger in France]

As proposed by Martin, Admin. and at the request of the original poster this topic has now been locked.

Roger in France
Moderator