Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length.

[Bryan Young]

Perhaps these 2 pics will help you. 2 different sorts of plating, one on a small ship and the other on a large one. Both with revetted hulls and not a rivet head to be seen!

[Bryan Young]

oops. try again.

[kiwi]

Heres an iron hull from 1864. All riveted, longitudinal joints lapped-in and out, transverse joints butt and plate on inside
Not a rivet to be seen on outside. except at the bow piece
kiwi

[John W E]

hi there

the link below was added to the Spashett build of mine, by Dave Tait - and it shows the rear end of the fishing vessel - if you look closely you can see that there seem to be proud round-headed rivets - and this has led me to believe a new chain of thought;

were a large number of smaller vessels say, from Coasters down to say, fishing vessels - that were built from steel used round-headed rivets on the outside, for cheapness, where larger vessels may have used counter-sunk rivets dueto the fact that the owners could afford it.   Think of it this way, for every hole drilled in a plate - that is flush fitted with a rivet - has to be countersunk - so this in turn will incur more expense for the labour involved.  Just a thought


http://www.senseofplacesuffolk.co.uk/calm/images/Suffolk/LRO_1300_72_42_47.jpg


aye
john

[Edmund]

 )Thanks fer the pics and links folks. Very interesting.
I managed to get a copy of "Merchant Ship Construction" bt H J Pursey from 1950 which is very interesting indeed and vol 1 and 2 of "The Design & Construction of Ships" by Professor J H Biles, from 1911 and 1919 which is giving me a headache.
So I will probably use 1/64^th ply for the plating not really a plasticard fan.

Ed

[nhp651]

edmund.
 i think you might find it far easier to plate with 120 - 140 gram card from an art shop.
when moist with pva glue you would find it moulds far easier around the stern than none pliable 1/64 th ply. you can then seal it all with cellulose sanding sealer before painting.
mind you it's preference at the end of the day.

[Bryan Young]

Two schools of thought on this. I sailed on many ships with rivetted hulls (and all the upper deck structure). I really cannot recall being in any ship that had flush rivetting. All the ones I remember had (on the visual side... the outside) just slightly domed tops...the "inside" was different, there you had the "big-head" (no comments please). But that is the main reason that I make my "rivetting" almost imperceptable. Very small (and dare I say it) cheaply built thingies could well have prominent heads showing. But it all comes down to "scale" again. Cheers. BY.

[ian kennedy]

You would find that riveted steel or iron construction armoured warships from the period that ED is asking about would have countersunk head rivets on the hull and decks
This was intended to reduce fuel consumption and fouling of the hull, except for the stiffening plates like the close up image on the external butt strap and other external fixtures added after the main hull structure had been built.
And as a general rule most superstructure plate parts were fixed with either dome head or a flattened cone head pattern rivets depending on the weight/gauge of plate.

I think using merchant ship images as a comparison to methods of Admiralty hull construction is OK, but most warships were built to different specifications and standards so they aren't really a good accurate example.

Ian

[Bryan Young]

You would find that riveted steel or iron construction armoured warships from the period that ED is asking about would have countersunk head rivets on the hull and decks
This was intended to reduce fuel consumption and fouling of the hull, except for the stiffening plates like the close up image on the external butt strap and other external fixtures added after the main hull structure had been built.
And as a general rule most superstructure plate parts were fixed with either dome head or a flattened cone head pattern rivets depending on the weight/gauge of plate.

I think using merchant ship images as a comparison to methods of Admiralty hull construction is OK, but most warships were built to different specifications and standards so they aren't really a good accurate example.

Ian

Point taken (no pun intended) BY

[Edmund]

So um the plates are joggled on the vertical joints and overlap the adjacent plate summet like this Do the edges always face backwards?

Ed.

[nhp651]

YES

[Edmund]

  good good.

Any idea what these things are please or is it just where the plates lap 

thanks,

Ed.

[nhp651]

sorry edmund but I can't make out what I'm  looking at.

[Edmund]

  Think they mebbe rubbing strakes? Think it the same ship as in post 1  They seem to coincide with the plate edges?

Ed.

[Bryan Young]

looks like joggled plating to me...the expensive way of building a (real) ship. BY.

[ian kennedy]

Hi Ed,

The highlighted strips are horizontal butt straps, which also double as rubbing strakes to help protect the hull plating from carless driving !!

Ian

[Edmund]

 Thanks Ian 

So this would mean that the the plates are flush and butt jointed , rather than in out then

Ed.

[Bryan Young]

No, they are made in a sort of "Z" shape at the edges so the seam of the upper plate fits snugly over the seam of the one under it.

[ian kennedy]

Brian has described it spot on

These horizontal strakes you highlighted are riveted along the joint lines of two plates as external stiffeners, connecting the top of the lower plate to the bottom edges of the top plate.

If you take three sheets of A4 paper and lay two of them flat on a table spaced 6 1/2" apart, then lay the third sheet over them with an equal overlap at each side on the bottom two sheets this will give you a basic understanding of plate joggle. The vertical end strake should be positioned as if you were laying bricks with a half joint or bond, ie; staggered       --------------I---------------I---------------I
                                                                                                                                                                                 -------I--------------I---------------I--------
                                                                                                                                                                                 --------------I---------------I---------------I
                                                                                                                                                                               
Cheers

Ian

[John W E]

Edmund hi there;

http://www.dockmuseum.org.uk/archive/index.asp

Have a look at this link - it is for the Dock Museum - its a good website - and there are literally thousands of photographs of ships of all ages, under construction.    I did begin looking on this website for close-up photographs of warship plating for you (I know they are there) cos I have used them myself before, for my builds.  Like everything else...I was side-tracked so, if you have a spare couple of hours - enjoy the website cos I think its great - and happy hunting.   It may answer a lot of your questions.

aye
john e
bluebird

[Edmund]

  Thanks fer the link and hel[ folks.
I got me 2 photos of Mantis today (finally) from the IWM, so have been looking very closely at them
So on the pic below A goes on top of B which in turn goes atop of C by the look of it?    and the trailing edges lap over the plate behind.

The things on the bow pic are butt straps and rubbing strakes ?

I thought joggling was the dogleg that allowed the faces to finish flush not  the in out arrangement?

Right ahs off ti read about landing edges

Ed.

[ian kennedy]

Hi Ed,

The photo showing the plating with the A,B,C legends and you understanding is spot on, the plate above the portholes is a sheer plate to reinforce the deck to hull plate edge.
If you were to continue your a,b,c down to d then d would overlap c  then e would be under d etc;

What drawings are you using for the Insect class gunboat? if they are from the NMM then they will have the full shell expansion drawings aswell, a good friend of mine built Scarrab many years ago using those drawings.

Ian

[Edmund]

Hello Ian,

I am using the 1/48^th HMS Gnat plans from Marine Modelling/Traplet? apart from cross sections they are just drawings of profile and plan views with no plating detail apart from the line of the reinforcing sides.
Apart from that I got a couple of photos from IWM of her on launch day and then just pics off the net really, nothing very detailed but I can make out most of the side plating i think, not back or underneath though 
I didn't know there were any plans of any of the real vessels available.
  and I just took out a bank loan to pay for these two photos.

Ed.

[Edmund]

Hello, quick question,  the ends of the hull plates look to be at 90⁰ to the edges as opposed to plumb , does this sound right please?

ta, Ed.

[ian kennedy]

Hi Ed,

It was normal practice to cut them at 90 degrees, although this  changed depending on the hull form and certain other areas where plates had to be bent and worked for example around the running gear, these would be cut and shaped into and around the shaft exit fairing plates.

It was far easier to work a good square 90 deg edged plate in the midship porition of the hull, and in theory this would continue as far forward and aft as possible.

Cheers

Ian