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[Capt Podge]

Hi All,

I intend running a few competitions for my local club this year, does anyone know where I can get me hands on layouts / plans for setting courses out ? Also any general rules or guidance.

[Colin Bishop]

You could try the MPBA site for rules: http://www.mpba.org.uk/sections/scale/scale_rules.htm

This was a recent course used - if it comes out!

Colin

[Bunkerbarge]

First I would have a look through the post from the Balne Moor lads here:

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13161.0

Then if you PM Poll I'm sure he would be more than happy to help you with identifying what you need to do to set up a course.

[ian kennedy]

Hi Capt Podge,

The basic materials for making a scale steering course are

1, navigation buoys   toilet cistern ballcock floats are the most used type, painted red and green then attached to a weight at the bottom by string and length set to suit.

2, channels and canals    rain water fall pipe is ideal for this, just block off the ends with some expanding foam.

3, docks     these can just be simple sheets of polystyrene foam of complex wood job's the world is your lobster with material choice!!

As a rule of thumb the nav buoys should be about 3 feet apart for width spacing and the channels can be as wide or tight as you like.

For cheap weights keep all your empty plastic milk bottles and fill them with sand, thread your string through the handle and attach to the buoy using a wire loop drilled through the threaded insert, or if like me you can spin a short length of studded rod into the float and drill through this.

Course design is something of a black art and is good fun when you get it right, look through some past issues of model boats as these were quite often published under the scale scene articles by Mike Finnis and Dave Miller in the 80's and 90's, these will give you some idea of how and what to do.


Regards

Ian

[Bryan Young]

It may be "pie in the sky", but I have often dreamed of seeing a layout that sort of imitates a "real-life" situation. Two that come to mind are the Thames Estuary and the area between Calshott and the Nab Tower. Lots of interestin sandbanks and buoyage systems and so on, plus you could have ships both inward and outward bound. Of course (no pun intended) the competitors would have to aquaint themselves with "the rule of the road" and the meaning of the buoyage system. No bad thing really! But it would certainly make for a more interesting "display" than just having one boat plodding around a course relyiing on the drivers eyesight. Thoughts? BY

[gingyer]

Bryan,
That is not a bad Idea something that is real and a bit more interesting.
I don't enter these comps, I did try tug towing but............give me my warships

To the general public thing like steering and tug-towing must be like watching paint dry.
to do as you suggest could get the publics imagination going and if it is based on the clubs local area
(mine being the clyde) it could be more interesting and with multiple boats sailing at the same time
be more watchable and encourage others to join the hobby

Colin

[Capt Podge]

A great BIG thank you to all respondents to date.

The ideas are beginning to register and will be adapted to suit.

Further to Bryans idea - anybody know of websites where "buoyage channels" charts could be downloaded ?

[Colin Bishop]

Calshot to the Nab Bryan? You'd need a pretty big pond! Actually, John Catlow did introduce "proper" buoyage steering courses at Maidstone back in the 1980s. As an ex skipper himself, he hated the invented ones.

But her's the entrance to Southampton Water.

Colin

[Roger in France]

I very much like Bryan's idea, especially with another "opposing" vessel. However, to be fair to all competitors it would have to be the same vessel and the same skipper, sailing the same contra course.

Roger in France

[toesupwa]

This is the Foss Cup course for 2008..

It seems to be vastly simplified compared to the GB courses...

[toesupwa]

And the two courses from the Seaway cup in San Francisco

[Bryan Young]

Colin, see the NW/SE shallow water channel? If I could get the tides right I could cut off about 4 hours from the Marchwood-Antwerp run. Some Captains were a bit leery about this, while others said (basically) "If you think you can do it, then go for it". Such trust! And then I sweat cobs knowing I only have 12" of water under me. Happy days... and not a grey hair yet.
As far as a layout is concerned then it's obvious that things would have to be compressed, but the notion still seems valid.
There is no problem at all getting a chart of any harbour, estuary or river entrance...Marine charts are available to anyone who wants one. The biggest problem would be getting the drivers of the models to read and understand "the Rules", and what all the different buoys indicate. My "dream" would therefore allow models of all sizes to be "on the water" at the same time. Of course a "route plan" would have to be presented before setting out on the voyage (as in real life). I would also do away with the idea that a "driver" has to be stood static in one place. He should be able to move to the best place he can find to actually drive his model. At the moment the competitions I have observed are more a question of eyesight than navigation...and I think that is wrong. In my own club (Tynemouth) the parameters of the courses haven't changed since the Vikings arrived. Naturally, people take advantage of the club rules and build boats about 12" long and then get dead easy and clear runs. We do have a competition for boats of 4' and over, but when one modeller just stuck a bit of wood on the front of a much shorter boat he was "allowed" to compete. Not right.
With my suggestion, models up to any length would be allowed on the water at the same time  and only navigational infringements would be penalised, therefore a level playing field would be there for all competitors.
I must, finally, admit to a bit of vested interest here. I, and others, would like to see our 6', 7' and 8' boats competing, but as we cannot even get round the corners, never mind turning 360* in an area less than the length of the model I'm not surprised that the number of entries to these competitions has declined. Ta for reading. BY.

[Bryan Young]

I very much like Bryan's idea, especially with another "opposing" vessel. However, to be fair to all competitors it would have to be the same vessel and the same skipper, sailing the same contra course.

Roger in France

Why? BY

[Roger in France]

I am sure you are right in principle Bryan. However, if one competitor is faced with a prattish skipper not encountered by others that is intrinsically unfair in a competition.

You could have a section of the scoring that went something like: +X points for other stupid skippers actively avoided!

On the point of being able to walk around the water you are dead right. What officer in charge stands still in a difficult position?

Roger in france

[Roger in France]

When you say, "Why" Bryan the answer is because a competition is essentially a comparison of a skipper's ability to deal with the same hazards as each other competitor.

If one skipper faces a stupid sod who has no seamanship and yet he skillfully avoids problems how can that compare with an equally skilled skipper who faces a less mad hazard?

All competitions are, to an extent, artificial. You made some sensible suggestions about making things more interesting and realistic but in such artificial competitions there must be a level of equal hazard.

Now, if you want a display of seamanship that is another matter. I agree you could have a fascinating display where skippers had everything thrown at them.

Roger in France

[Colin Bishop]

When John C organised it at Maidstone it was a free for all because he said that is what it is like in real life. Skippers were given an abbreviated version of the Rules of the Road and told to get on with it. If two vessels collided within a narrow "gate" then they should have seen it coming! It was great fun with lots of boats on the water at once going in different directions. But it was hell for the judges - and you needed one for each boat. Probably why it never caught on, not enough manpower.

The current practice of needing to stand at one point is probably down to me originally. Back in the 70's we had the problem of people building titchy little boats which could turn on a sixpence and left the bigger models standing. So the answer was the "psychological" obstacle, one that looked as if it was difficult but where there was in fact plenty of room for all boats if you kept your nerve. If it was something of an eyesight test then most people do have corrected eyesight so they were on an equal footing. It has actually worked quite well down the years when properly implemented as the results will bear out.

Colin

[Capt Podge]

Some fascinating ideas being put forward here.

For the opposing skippers theme - we could have, say 2 opposing and 1 competing, let's call them A, B & C.
A is competing - B & C opposing. If B & C sail in a fair and safe manner, when it's B competing then A & C will be obliged to do likewise. So on and so forth.
If one of the opposing skippers "accidentally" causes an unfair problem then he/she will suffer the penalty point(s) and not the competitor......or is this taking things a little too far, the last thing I would want is club members falling out over what is supposed to be a test of ship handling

[toesupwa]

Some fascinating ideas being put forward here.

For the opposing skippers theme - we could have, say 2 opposing and 1 competing, let's call them A, B & C.

At the Foss Cup, one boat was let out on the course whilst another was waiting to join the course in the 'Harbour'. When the first boat was half way round the course, the second boat was allowed out of the harbour and in to the course.... and so somewhere around the course the two boats were sure to meet.
The skippers were marked on how they viewed the situation they found themselves in... how far ahead they saw a possible problem... and how they discussed between themselves who had right of way and boat placement.
It came up with some interesting situations as the two boats rarely met in the same place on the course....

[Capt Podge]

That seems reasonable Toesupwa, might try that one out, gives extra thought to actual course layout too

[John W E]

   Hi there Capt Podge

There is some very interesting reading and thoughts here in the last couple of threads - but, may I just say, if this is your first attempt at setting out and running a scale competition - keep your rules/course simple.   This is because you may find (depending on how many competitors you have) it is they the competitors who give the most trouble - so, your first job is to ensure that they understand all of the rules of the course.   Keep the rules, as I say, simple - this idea of Bryan's of using 'official charts and buoys' if followed, you may immediately limit this competition to one or two who might know the Navigation Rules.  Plus, one generally finds that those who do have knowledge of the Navigation Rules of seamanship, never enter any scale competitions , never have and may never do.

You are best then to try and keep the competition open to all - all ages and skills.  Your main aim then is to design a course which caters for varying size of vessel & propulsion in the vessel - e.g. single prop/multi prop - and also those with bow thrusters and gizmos.

This is where you have to try and balance everything out in the planning of the course.

What I used to find was, that it was always the young ones who could hammer the older ones  so, we were considering having 2 competitions - young ones and one for the older ones - who could see the buoys clearly.

aye
john e
bluebird

[Brian_C]

hi all, i can see what some of you ex MM,S. CAPTAINS. and other EX SEAMEN are coming from, EX SEAMAN  myself,, Ive been scale captain for 6yrs and made some real interesting and unusual courses, and easy ones for the novices, model ships dont sail or steer like the real thing and never will,,, you would need an exceptionally big pond to make up some of the courses you are posting,,,,   (REMEMBER THIS)   most of our members app 112 of them have NEVER  been to sea,  we are from all walks of life and have one thing in common, we enjoy making and the sailing of model boats, no matter how big or small, so standing a clerical worker or a refuse disposal worker, (examples) who have no knowledge of basic seamanship, handing them a chart of  say the solent or the humber and steer the given coarse,  thats an unfair advantage to all you EX SEAMEN  with years of nautical experience, also trying to sail 6ft models against 2ft models  on a coarse is unfair, and most clubs don't have the time to run a series of comps for small and large ships in any given Sunday morning, I'm not against what the bishop and bry young are saying,,, but after years of watching other scale captains  ( and other clubs comps) and doing 6 yrs as a scale capt, they wont work, and  also,  (LISTENING TO WHAT THE MEMBERS WANT)  not what we EX SEAMEN  want,,,, its an awkward job being any captain in a model boat club,   Ive always kept my courses fair and not to difficult and gave leeway to single prop ships as apposed to twin Kort's on the same course which can steer them with ease,,,, yes ide like to see some events as you describe, but its all about giving the members an enjoyable days sailing in a friendly atmosphere and not to have a heated discution at the landing stage over bamboosled courses the members cant read, and we have a chairman who swears (HE NEVER HIT THE MARKER)  every time he sails, (specsavers bill, specsavers) as i said earlier,,, its all about a  FUN DAY OUT,  sailing what took months or even years to build.....  well thats my two bobs worth, thanks for reading, brian_c

[Capt Podge]

Yep, that's more food for thought. Keep 'em coming, I can print off, read and digest, should be able to end up with a reasonable compromise.
My thanks to all contributors thus far.

[longshanks]

Hi Folks,

Whilst agreeing in principle with Colin & BY (ex merchant navy) I feel it might not be very practical to execute. How are we going to introduce tides to the lake & whose going to be the pilot - would we have to apply for free practique. 

In the South West SWAMBC have used a modified set of rules for scale steering.
http://www.swambc.webeden.co.uk/#/ssfullrules/4516805508

The main differences being

From what I can see there is little stress put on scale fidelity - meaning anyone can have a go (Not everyone is capable of producing a scale masterpiece).

The competions are divided into four classes
      Small        72 to 175 square inches   
      Medium                176 to 299 square inches
      Large       300 and over  “        “   

      Pilot class open to newcomers.

The above clauses make it available to everyone and you can be as competitive as you want.

Regards

longshanks

[Tachikaze]

  Is there a standardized scoring for such an event. We are looking at the idea of having several locations doing maneuvering and scale judging, then using the scores from the various locations to find a winner. So, some form of standardized way to score of judging of the scale of the boat and something to judge the ability to maneuver the course.

[Bryan Young]

Nice to see this subject being raised again! Having just re-read the whole thread I must admit that, at least as far as Tynemouth is concerned, it's all still much as it ever was. One dinky little boat at a time going the rounds. Notwithstanding the dreadful weed problem that has severely curtailed our activities for the last 2 seasons, the popularity of this sort of competition seems to have waned considerably.
     What models do take part remain little ones. If a course was laid out to accomodate large models then even I might join in ( to me and a few others even 4ft is not a "large" model! Also, I'm still against the "one model at a time" business...and would still like to see the "driver" free to shift conning positions.
     As far as buoyage is concerned there doesn't seem to be any difficulty with simply having (for instance) red and green ones. One way around the track keep the green ones to starboard, and if going the other way round keep the red ones to starboard. So 2 ships going in opposite directions could be fun. BY.