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[WLJayne]

Hi Guys and Gals,

I hope this is the right place for this kind of thing, I've looked around but if I've missed the appropriate forum/ rule please forgive me. I run a small modelmaking company called Gwylan Models in Wales in the UK, you can see our website here. We've been going for a year and so far it's been great. To this point we've been producing models for the 1:1250 scale collectable ship hobby, and we've had a very pleasing amount of success with it. However, that industry is quite small, and I'm looking to expand the business in the RC ship direction.

I'd like to introduce myself before I ask you all a few questions. I've been making models as far back as I can remember, and it's always been my life's passion. I especially have a soft spot for all things maritime. The representation in miniature of the wonders of engineering and technology has always given me alot of pleasure, and through this passion my small business came to be. I started the company in my second year of college, I am now in my final few weeks of BA (Hons) Modelmaking for Design and Media at the Arts Institue at Bournemouth (yes, you can study modelmaking at degree level !) The emphasis on the course is more architecture and media, but I've always taken the most job satisfaction in modelling for hobbyists. I like creating things that will bring someone enjoyment on a creative level. So I started Gwylan when I saw oppertunity and it's gone really well so far. However, if I'm going to make a career out of it when I graduate I need to be producing for a bigger market. 

So, I'm eager to hear what you guys would like to see made. I have a few ideas from my own experience of RC ship modelling, but I'd really value your input.
Essentially, I want to create high quality complete RC ship kits. I will probably stick to warships to begin with. I know that most of us would love to build massive RC ships if we could, but reality often doesn't permit, but that doesn't mean we can't still build beautiful models. I'd like to create products that posses qualities such as:

- Complete kits, everything you need is in the box except glues, paints and tools - just like a big plastic kit.

- Highly detailed structural parts and fittings, photo etch, decals etc.

- Less fuss and hassle, scratchbuilding and semi kits are wonderful things but sometimes they are too big a commitment for us.

- Manageable scales but very high levels of detail, we don't all drive trucks and not many can afford custom built trailers.

- Top quality materials and workmanship, glass fibre, polyeurethane resin and white metal parts etc.

- High quality manuals, so you don't get baffled when you're trying to put the thing together.


These are the kind of qualities that many people I've spoken to seem to be looking for, and if there's room in the market I'd love to give it my very best shot. I will visit shows and talk to exhibitors, and I have some excellent shops near bournemouth, but I wanted to ask all of youy too.   
I'd like to be able to present a complete kit that could be built to a high standard and sailed with pleasure by anyone who is trying to fit in a sometimes demanding hobby with a full time job and an average sized car!
At the moment I'm toying with the idea of sticking to one scale for the most part. I'm thinking 1:150 which would make most modern warships just over the 1 metre mark. Is that a good scale do you think? Obviously some subjects are bigger - and I'd definately give them a go too! In the end I want to create model kits that people will enjoy building and cherish owning, and aren't overly hard on the wallet! Please let me know what you think of my aims, and feel free to suggest things. Anything you can offer would be really helpful and appreciated. Thanks guys, see you around :).

Will.   

[Bartapuss]

Hi Will, wow you're really opening a can of worms here especially with some of the idiots on this site, and I can speak from experience no matter what you do or how good the product is there will be those you can't please or you don't supply enough gear with it. I mean you could do a full kit with fittings, motors and rc gear all for a fiver and they'll still want more out of you or you could  include a cd with pics of the real thing and the build plus full instructions and they'll still complain, I mean some of them can't hold a button down for 3 seconds to set up a sound unit for gawd's sake!!!.
Do a subject and scale that you feel comfortable with and which is cost effective to you, don't get led down the garden path as there is a lot of timewasters out there which are indicative to models boats for some reason, not like model railways, a better class of modeller I find.
Forget the old farts, they nearly out of it and don't spend much money anyway as they mainly make the models out of stuff other people throw in the trash, target the younger market as we need new blood in the hobby, something dads can do with their sons for example.

[red181]

HA HA, made me laugh Bartapus, very contraversial

As a Dad with lads (trying to keep them interested at the lake), and not being an old fart (well not yet!), for what its worth, the kids are bored stiff of anything warships etc, they are too young to appreciate what they are, they just like fast, and very fast, and after 15 mins, they like most kids, are bored with it. I think club 500, and the zig zag racers, are probably the sort of boats that keep their attention the longest, close competitive racing with little maintenance and expenditure.They find my endless tinkering with old unreliable scale boats so boring they wont even come with me anymore! 

[duimpje]

hello

I'm a beginning modeller (sorry for my english)
I think it would be good to start with easy to build kits, because they are easier to fabricate and you have a bigger reach, as wel experrienced as unexperrienced can build them

best regards
robin

[DARLEK1]

Hi Will, it's Paul here from Sirmar, if you go down the RC warship route, please take a look at what is already out there, we alone have got 27 new releases due over the next 4 years in 1/96th- 1/48th and also in 1/72nd.
 I am not trying to put you off warships, but, there are a lot of us out here already.

 Paul...

[WLJayne]

Wow lots of replies already! Thanks everyone! This is very much a case of testing the water, I haven't been too involved with the hobby for a while and I have much catching up to do I guess.

Paul, I have great respect for the work that you do, your models really are masterpieces. When I was a teen modelling ships Sirmar and Fleetscale etc were the stuff of my daydreams :)! I have no desire to step on anyone's toes, and I know there are alot of you doing a very good job already. I'm just looking around to see if (like all of us) there's a niche that I could fill. I don't think I'll be making models in very large scales, as you said that's all pretty well covered. Thanks for the welcome though, it would be great to meet you at a show sometime in the future :).

About the farts, believe me, 1:1250 scale is just as bad. There are some really great people in the hobby, I was at the Theale mini ship show today and the  numbers of people attending were very encouraging for the hobby. But there is alot of fartyness about also. More often than not - no it's more all the time really, I just do the best model I can and 95% of people like it and that's as good as you can hope for most of the time. You usually find that if you ask for approval, you'll get alot of mess and the blighters don't even have any interest in the model! So I know what you mean .

Thanks again, I suppose I have quite alot of market research in front of me.

Will.

[DARLEK1]

Thanks Will, email me and we'll have a chat. I know where there is a niche!
 Paul...

 PS, I got two subjects covered already

[Colin Bishop]

You can't go far wrong with tugs, loads to choose from and traditional or modern ones are equally popular. They also make very practical working models. (and Paul doesn't make them either!)

Colin

[DARLEK1]

erm? Colin? I make 4 tugs LOL!

 5 if you include the fittings set for the Fleetscale Roysterer.

 Paul...

[boatmadman]

Offshore supply/anchor handling type vessels - the choice is huge!

Ian

[Colin Bishop]

Oops! Sorry Paul! Should have done my homework!

Still, room for some more there though.

Colin

[DARLEK1]

Not with 27 new warships comming out soon mate.

 Paul...

 Far too many tugs out there already, but, that is my own opinion.

[TCC]

I always wondered why no-one made plastic kits, like airfix, etc, but B-I-G like Lindbergs 'Blue Devil' fletcher class destroyer @ 3ft long. I, myself, prefer to stay away from metal as it's not vbvery kitchen table friendly. Give me a big 5ft long plastic battleship.. or a choice of.. and I'd be like a pig in ...

But thats not an answer for your question as injection moulded plastics mean a machine and mucho ££ in R&D, etc. Some Germans are on the righ lines with a 1:72 Bismark in plastic.

But it'd be grea if a guy could buy a big 4-5ft long craft and build it on the kitchen tabl without needing to learn to solder brass, without having to cut and file metal, without learning fibreglass/resin & white metal moulding & casting and all those quiet specialist things. Give him something to stick together easily, that he can cut with a modellors saw or craft knife, and that he can then paint and tie bits of cotton to in front of the TV and I think you'll turn all those old-fxxts into 'new fans'

I'm a aspiring young fxxt working towards old-age a day at a time!

p.s give paul a sleepless night, say you've plans to release a range of modern RN!! But say you'll create a differentiator by going 1:100!!

[Malcolm Reade]

But thats not an answer for your question as injection moulded plastics mean a machine and mucho ££ in R&D, etc. Some Germans are on the righ lines with a 1:72 Bismark in plastic.

Hi WLJayne

To injection mould hulls of any meaningful size would probably require a 300 ton machine as a minimum.  You can sometimes buy them on E-bay for a few thousand pounds, but they're mostly old, worn-out examples and at the end of useful productive life.  Moulds, normally in polished chrome steel would cost you a great deal more if you can find ANYBODY to make them - the Chinese can, and you would obviously need separate moulds for each component that you are producing.  A mould for a 4 foot long warship hull would likely cost you a couple of hundred thousands of pounds.  You would also need a fork-lift truck to move it.  The machines are so big that you would HAVE to have a large industrial unit to house them.

You have to consider that the model industry, in the UK at least, is now only 20% of the size that it was at the end of WW2, and is still shrinking rapidly - we've discussed this on Mayhem previously.

My advice?  If you've got a couple of million to invest (throw away?), the knowledge and experience to handle the materials and machinery, and a rock-solid market for your products, go the injection moulding route.  If not, don't even consider it.

Most of the manufacturers that I know in the model industry do their best to give the public what they want, but within the constraints of serious underfunding, a shrinking and rapidly ageing market.  Some make a living, most barely do.  The majority are modellers themselves and I suppose do it for the love of it, rather than any profit that they might make.

Whatever you do, be VERY sure that you have a good business plan and stick to it.

Regards

Malc

(Reade Plastics)

[WLJayne]

But it'd be grea if a guy could buy a big 4-5ft long craft and build it on the kitchen tabl without needing to learn to solder brass, without having to cut and file metal, without learning fibreglass/resin & white metal moulding & casting and all those quiet specialist things. Give him something to stick together easily, that he can cut with a modellors saw or craft knife, and that he can then paint and tie bits of cotton to in front of the TV and I think you'll turn all those old-fxxts into 'new fans'

Thats exactly what I'm aiming for matey .

As for injection moulding, I have not desire to go anywhere near it. It just isn't viable at all for what I aim to do,  you're absolutely right Malc. When I mentioned plastic kits, I more meant their style of assembly and straightforward nature, rather than the material aspects. I will be using glass fibre for major structures (used to build lifeboats for the RNLI, bit bigger LOL!) and PU resin and the odd small white metal part for fittings. I think that in the scales I intend to work in, railings and radars etc etc can be represented by photo etch - perhaps.

Paul is right, there are alot of very well established warship guys doing a very good job in the bigger scales. So I will (as was my original intention) be sticking to the smaller "kitchen table/ missus friendly" scales. Mind you, I was looking at one of the modern warships I'm thinking of doing last night and it works out around 1.6 m long! Two metre aircraft carrier anyone  ?

Will. 

[barryfoote]

Will,
Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the very best of luck. Just ensure it is done to the highest quality you can. Then people just might come back for more. A poor reputation is not easy to get rid of...

Barry

[Philipsparker]

Personally I'd go the opposite direction to most of you. What most people want is a cheap kit, not neccesarily a good one. Top quality kits take lots of R&D to produce and ages to recoup the investment as they sell in penny numbers. The George Turner range (now off the market) of vac-formed hulls and superstructures allowed modellers to build either a very basic boat or a highly detailed one dependant on thier requirements.

I've built a few of these:
Cruiser: http://philsworkbench.blogspot.com/search/label/minty
Tug: http://philsworkbench.blogspot.com/search/label/Tomsk

and I'd include the Model Slipway 500 class boats in the same category. The models are small enough to store easily and can sail on any water. If you produce the fittings too then we'll probably buy these if we don't buy the kit as they will be useful for other projects.

Phil

[hama]

Very interesting question with a million answers!
Warships and tugs are over represented as it is in my opinion, why don't anyone make a line of passenger vessels, old or new. Could be ferries or cruisers. Make them in the same scale as some do with their range of warships. At least no one does that so one would be alone in this niche. I'm probably totally wrong but it could appeal to both newcomers and existing modellers as most people can relate to them. On the other hand it might be a reason that no one's done it!    Whatever you choose I wish you luck!   
Hama.

[Colin Bishop]

The problem with ferries and cruise ships is that it isn't easy to make effective working models because when you scale them down to model size there isn't much under the water to hold the rest of the ship up! You can see this with the conversions of the big Airfix Queen Mary II which are very much fair weather models.  Quite appart from the disproportionate effect of the wind on such models you need to build the topsides and superstructure very light to the extent that it becomes very fragile. Yes, it can be done but it's probably not a very good commercial proposition.

Colin

[MCAT]

WLJayne  i Wish you well, a young man wishing to start in the manufacture of Kits, its going to be tuff getting it right but I think your
idea of making them a manageable size is on the right track for the reasons you have stated. Transportation is a biggie.
who wants to be building it to just to knock the crap out of it getting in the car.

Don't make the mistake of bypassing the old Farts as they are the one's at the water showing the public RC Modelling
( with a lot of younger farts )  LOL.

So when you have the 3ft kit of HMS HOOD ready let me know and I will get my money out.  I am an old fart at 62 been modelling
for only 5 years approx and have purchased One kit a year, and we are also the ones looking to fill leisure time.

Good Luck to you.     Mick

[nhp651]

Darlek,
Are you worried about competition, by steering WLJayne away from warships and tugs??
I thought it was "dog eat dog" in this business of yours.

[DARLEK1]

No I am not as I said. I was just saying that there are alot already out there, Will and I have been exchanging emails, I know where there is a niche for what he wants to do and at what scales to do it in. I want to keep 4 main scales in my range and one or two new odd ball ones that are in the works. Some scales for me I just don't like, but, I have been asked many times and even critisised for not doing them. There is a massive hole in the market for what Will and I have been chatting about.

 Paul...

[Bunkerbarge]

WLJayne, just another few thoughts for you to consider.

I think it is fair to say that this current world wide economic climate is not the most conducive to starting up a new business venture.  Businesses all over the world are now feeling the pinch, especially any that earn thier keep from "Disposable Income".  I work in the leasure business and believe me big companies are all tightening thier belts at the moment.  Redundancies all over the world are heading towards very high figures and money for products such as yours will be very carefully counted by all potential customers.  That isn't to say there aren't advantages, low interest rates mean you can borrow money cheaper than you have ever been able to in the past, that is if you can persuade a bank to lend it you!

With this in mind you are entering a very competetive market where there are already a number of well established players.  There are already kit manufacturers who specialise in tugs and there are those who specialise in warships.  There are some who produce only fibre glass hulls and there are those who produce only fittings.  Most make kits using fibre glass hulls, wooden or plasticard superstructure and white metal and resin fittings and have a great deal of expertise in these materials.  You obviously cannot compete with the plastic model trade, neither can you compete with the RTR stuff coming in from China.  More finished kits are also produced by the bigger kit manufacturers such as Robbe who, being a large company have the luxury of thier own R&D department at thier disposal.  We also already have established companies that deal with multi-media kits and of smaller scales so what you are suggesting is not radically new.

I think the only way you can compete in this arena is to come up with a product that appeals to a completely new market and does not put you in competition with any of the established manufacturers.  Creating a completely new market is never easy but in the current economic climate is going to be even more of a challenge and whilst you may have the expertise and enthusiasm you do not have the experience of the market to help you.  

If I was in your situation at this moment I would be looking at what all the established kit manufacturers are currently producing and trying to come up with something that none of them have in thie catalogue.  Bear in mind though, these guys have been in business for years and already know what is not worth manufacturing so you might well end up identifying something that has already not worked for one of them.

I do not want you to take this as all being very negative but just some thoughts that might help you establish something that has a chance of success.  I think you need to come up with something new that has not been tried before and your suggestions of smaller scales, multi-media kits and high levels of  detail are already out there so is nothing new.  I think this is why a lot of newer people to the trade have gone down the path of making specialised fittings for models that are not worth the while of the big manufacturers to produce.  The experience of people like PSShips is invaluable and if Paul is willing to help you to find this hole in the market then you are going to be in with a chance and all credit to Paul for helping you.

We all wish you all the very best of luck and look forward to seeing what you eventually decide to embark on.

[Circlip]

Whatever you go for WLJ., another line to consider that seems to be missing, apart from one notable manufacturer, is the Vac-form route. The tooling is COMPARITIVELY cheap and the machinery nowhere near the cost of injection types. Not everyone wants to build a museum quality representation and if you try to produce one, it will not be of the correct "Refit" period that some will want, so that leads them to further research. BB has rightly pointed out the "Economic" climate and whilst not trying to put a damper on your project, "cutting cloth" should be your watchword.

  Regards   Ian.

  Ouch, just seen the GT thread.

[nhp651]

i don't think you could have finer advice than that, which bunkerbarge has just given, WJLAYNE..