Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Digital read out's for mini lathe  (Read 14057 times)

Bartapuss

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 262
  • Deltic's Rule OK!
  • Location: Somewhere up North
Digital read out's for mini lathe
« on: May 11, 2009, 09:41:50 pm »


DRO - Digital ReadOuts on a Mini-lathe
What's the point?


DRO stands for Digital Read Out. In terms of mini-lathes and micro-mills, this means having a digital display of the displacement of one or more of the directional axis.

The usual cheap way of implementing DRO (digital read-outs) on a mini-lathe or micromill is to butcher a digital vernier caliper, and use the digital unit. This unit is then attached to the lathe so that the reading changes as you, for example, move the cross slide.
In my mind, DRO on a mini-lathe is about as useful as a digital RPM indicator on a mini-lathe. Utterly useless.
MY reasons behind this statement?

· Mini-lathes are not terribly stiff. Neither are their tools. There is a fair amount of accumulated slop that means that if I advance the cross slide by 1 mm according to the DRO, I will bet you any money the amount of metal subsequently removed does not turn out to be what you expected according to the DRO.

· It is possible, with professional machine tools, to calculate the correct rate of tool advance and RPM for making a given cut in a certain material. But this is not how we use a mini-lathe. A mini-lathe and a micro-mill are operated by feeling and touch. Not by watching numbers on digital readouts.

· To make a part of a particular size, I would never trust the DRO to tell me that I had advanced the tool the correct amount. I would measure the part, advance the tool slightly, measure again. Measure Measure Measure. This is the key to success with a mini-lathe and a micro-mill.
 

In summary, Your not going to get the same results from a £400 mini machine compared to a industrial unit which costs thousands more, they're not built to the same standards but if you want to fit DRO to you mini-lathe or micro-mill then go ahead, but I don't think you will find them very useful even as a rough guide, infact a number of people who have had them fitted (as a add on by the machine manufacturer or otherwise) later removed them as they just simply got in the way.

If you are debating whether you should pay extra for having digital RPM and DRO fitted to your new mini-lathe then DON'T BOTHER - waste of money. Spend the money on something more useful.

With regards to the aforementioned the same would apply if your thinking of converting a relatively cheap mini machine to CNC, this would also be a waste of time & money, if you can't get consistency and accurately in measurement data then you not going to get consitency and accuracy in finished product results, especially if producing identical pieces of work in multiple. By simply bolting on a CNC drive kit for anthing other than a bit of fun to gain experience in the system, FORGET IT!!.
Logged
Every time I learn something new, it pushes something old out of my brain - I says wot I likes and I likes wot I say!!!

andyn

  • Guest
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2009, 10:16:33 pm »

Then get a large hammer and whack it off? ;)

The school lathe is a 40 odd year old bantam, and is 4mm out either way on the turret in all directions, that's a challenge!

I suppose on a large industrial lathe it would be worth it, but they would all be CNC anyway.
Logged

portside II

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,523
  • tugs at rest
  • Location: Howden.East Riding of Yorkshire.England Near the banks of the river Ouse
    • goole model boat club indi site
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2009, 10:46:15 pm »

I could have bought a dro on my chester conquest ,but decided not to as i felt i would not be making lots of one item at once .
So i bought some decent tools with the difference ,Mmm glanze tools nice  :-)) .
daz
Logged
I like to build my boats to play with, not to just look pretty, so they dont !

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2009, 10:59:43 pm »

Goodness me Bartapuss, you do sound angry about something.

Just to let you into a little secret, the mini lathes that are made nowadays are a great little lathe, and with a small amount of patience and understanding, can be made to work wonders.

I only 'repaired' one the other week. 'What a load of ****' was what the owner said, 'everything flopping about all over the place, and I can't get a decent finish'.  So I told him to leave his lathe in my shop, and trek back to darkest Oldham. I would give him a call when it is ready to pick up.

About three hours later, the machine was transformed. First off was give it a good drink of slideway oil, then a bit of shimming to get rid of the backlash on both handles, gibs cleaned out and again given a dose of oil. Then all I did was adjust everything to correct specs. It is now back at home, and he hasn't stopped using it since. He can't believe it is the same machine. I measued up the bed, and there wasn't more than 1 thou over the whole length, and that small error could have been caused by oil film (0.002" average thickness).

The trouble is that people buy these small lathes expecting them to be ready to go straight out of the box. Nothing could be further from the truth.

You get a box of bits, it is up to the purchaser to get it adjusted correctly to use. That is why they are so cheap. If the retailer were to spend time setting up every one that came in from China, they would cost at least £200 more in labour charges alone. So what you are buying is an unopened box, straight from the assembly line.

Earlier ones of these lathes had a few major problems with the casting and subsequent maching, but even those can be brought back from the dead. This owner had assigned it to roughing out work, but now treats it as though it is a watchmakers lathe, because it gives the same sort of results. The saga can be found here, and it does show how badly these lathes used to be made.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=627.0

With regards to DRO's on lathes. If a lathe or mill is adjusted and lubricated correctly, a DRO will definitely improve your machine tolerances, even on a mini mill or lathe.

I have recently bought new machinery, and have converted both the mill and lathe to have four axis DRO on each one. OK they are not cheap little machines like the mini lathe and mill, but ALL machines, if set up correctly in the first place, will benefit from some sort of DRO setup.

By fitting extra DRO's to my lathe, and adjusting it all in, I have converted it from a general purpose workshop machine, to a highly accurate piece of tooling that will bang out piece after piece, all within 0.0005" (approx 0.01mm) tolerance. Plus if I need to, no tolerance at all.

The picture is of my lathe readouts. I don't look at the feed handles any more, once the initial cleanup cut is done and a measurement is taken, all settings are done to DRO readouts until the finish of the cut.

Bogs


Logged

Bunkerbarge

  • Guest
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2009, 12:33:14 am »

Calm down a bit Barty or you'll be using up some of your nine lives blowing a gasket.

Now strangely enough I have a Chester Mini Lathe, fitted with DRO's.  When I bought the lathe I did all the reading and research and came to the conclusion that the first thing I should do is take it apart and set it up correctly.  It's taken a couple of years but I've now had the saddle apart and cleaned it all up. greased and opiled it and set up the gibs.  Last time at home I surprised myself by actually getting stuck in and stripped down the headstock gearbox.  Not exactly easy but not exactly beyond most of us either.  I replaced both the main shaft bearings with new sealed items suitably heated up in the oven and slid onto a suitably cooled shaft in the freezer.  The main improvement was being able to get some grease onto the gears and the reversing lever with it's indent mechanism.  Not surprisingly everything actually works a lot smoother now and I know that the gearbox is in good condition.  The layshaft also got new bearings and the whole lot went back together.

Not rocket science but I now have a mini lathe that is in pretty good condition and quite able to justify the DRO's fitted to it.  I agree you can't beat a measurement for a final piece of mind but if you get the lathe set up properly in the first place then that should be no more than a confirmation of the final size.

I find the DRO's are actually a great way of ensuring an accurately consistent depth of cut which are easier to judge than the rather large marks on the handwheel but at the end of the day live and let live and each to thier own and all that.  If you prefer to go by feel and a micrometer then what ever floats your boat at the end of the day it's the finished item that is important not how you achieve it.

I actually like my DRO's and find them very useful.
Logged

Bartapuss

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 262
  • Deltic's Rule OK!
  • Location: Somewhere up North
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2009, 01:43:44 am »

Bunkerbarge & bogstandard, don't worry I'm not getting angry but I do feel some people out there get suckered in by thinking DRO is an easy fix and is going to solve all the problems and think they'll able to do super precision work and repetition work as easy as pie with little or no experience or expertise. I mean the digital and cnc equipment is really keenly priced compared to just a few years ago. I've seen some of this stuff very poorly tacked on with flimsyest of brackets it was no wonder the owners were having problems with it.

You are both dead right, you've got to get the basic machine set up right before taking it to the next stage whether it be DRO or CNC, and from what I've seen so far you guys have both done some good work on that front but a lot of purchasers of the "straight out of the box" machine will be ignorant of the facts you have mentioned and maybe not lucky enough to have a good friend like you to iron out the snags for them. I bet a lot of these machines are purchased without set up service because pay that extra charge really takes the shine off that show bargain, but any lathe is better than no lathe at all I suppose.

I've have a Record Power ML360 (same as Proxxon/Toyo) and I been slowly upgrading it over the past few years and hope to add taper roller bearings to the headstock soon. After seeing the DRO's at the recent Harrogate Show, I just don't know if I could consign my micrometer to the scrap bin!
Logged
Every time I learn something new, it pushes something old out of my brain - I says wot I likes and I likes wot I say!!!

Bunkerbarge

  • Guest
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2009, 03:22:53 am »

I honestly think Barty that if you know what you are doing and you are able to set up your machine properly you will start by getting a bit of a buzz out of 'playing' with the DRO's but you will soon find it really useful and progress to wondering how you managed without them!!

As I said, each to thier own, just do what you feel comfortable with and, above all else, enjoy your lathe!
Logged

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2009, 06:14:24 am »

The first thing anyone should do when otaining one of these small lathes is get it rigidly mounted onto a good flat surface.

I always tell people to get hold of a piece of thick melanine covered kitchen worksurface, take the lathe off those dreaded rubber feet, and bolt the lathe and drip tray to the worktop. You will end up with a machine that is stable, and will hold size very well once all the gibs are done.

The most important thing is lubrication. metal to metal contact really is no way to treat a machine, not only will it be difficult to move the slides, but excessive wear and inaccuracy will soon ensue. Not just any oil either, a correct grade of slideway oil (ISO 68), as it is blended to give the correct film thickness while under pressure. I give my machines a couple of oilings a day on all slideways if it is needed. 20 squid a year is nothing to pay to keep your lathe in good condition.

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/cgi-local/ss000001.pl?RANDOM=NETQUOTEVAR%3ARANDOM&PAGE=SEARCH&SS=slideway+oil&TB=A&GB=A&ACTION=Search

For all other oiling areas, use a medium weight hydraulic oil. No, not brake fluid.

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/range/guid/8561F95A-829D-44AE-B5C5-FE3051A9DAAC

It is better to have oil dripping from the machine, than having it wear out prematurely.

Dirt can be cleaned off, putting right worn slideways is a little more difficult.

Bogs
Logged

OMK

  • Guest
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2009, 06:44:32 am »

A buddy of mine in California called me over to install the electrics in his new workshop. That was the first time I'd seen a DRO.
I think that once the machine is properly set up and running, the DRO becomes a pure joy to use -- almost a godsend.
Logged

SteamboatPhil

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,998
  • Location: Dieppe, France
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2009, 06:49:46 pm »

I thought my workshop was clean !!!!
I don't have DRO on my machines but it is something I'm looking at, but having used a friend of mine's machine which had them fitted I can't belive I work without one.
I do however fully check my Myford over about every 3 months, checking gibs etc as I found you do get a small amount of "slop" over time.
Logged
Steamed up all the time

Bryan Young

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,883
  • Location: Whitley Bay
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2009, 07:29:03 pm »

Very nice, but how many of us can afford that sort of set-up? My "mini-lathe" (the smaller of the 2 Proxxons) has to be portable due to workshop size constraints. Even though it is called a "mini" lathe it is still pretty heavy. I've built it into a sort of "working box" with all the tools etc incorporated.
2431 is the lathe in "stowage" (minus the door_
2432 ..lathe and mini drill/mill in stowage.
2433..Lathe on bench and ready for use.
Logged
Notes from a simple seaman

Bryan Young

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,883
  • Location: Whitley Bay
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2009, 07:30:33 pm »

oops again.
Logged
Notes from a simple seaman

OMK

  • Guest
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2009, 08:26:02 pm »

You don't need $$$ to have a neat setup. Them photos look slick enough. A tidy shop = tidy work.
I seen Steamboat Phil's work, which proves you can still work magic without a DRO. But once you've played with one...........
Logged

Bee

  • Guest
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2009, 09:57:15 pm »

Keep getting tempted by DROs but think they look either too flimsy or too expensive.
However last week I got something rather similar. A GPS. Going to Harrogate I just obeyed the voice - no appreciation of where I really was - and it merrily took me right past the entrance and round the back which no doubt the regulars know is a valid entrance but I cursed and went back to manual. However it later took me to within 10 ft of a friend's house even telling me which side of the road it was. So technology can be good, but you have to keep the brain engaged.
Quarter of a century ago my brain was sapped by those new fangled calculator things. Now I can't add up a simple shopping basket and have to power up excel to multiply by 15.
Logged

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Digital read out's for mini lathe
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2009, 10:06:32 pm »

Actually, I have heard that Warco are retailing a 'cuttable' scale type DRO, that has a sealed in lead going to a small remote display head. Cost is about £50. Not fully waterproof, but that shouldn't be a problem as most of you I am sure don't use flood coolant

If that is right, then you lads with small millers and lathes could get set up with a basic 2 axis DRO for £100. That is less than I pay for one glass read head that I use with my units.

Might be worth checking out if you are really interested. I checked on their site but they are not shown yet, but they did have them at Harrogate (so I was told).

But even so, you could always go with a couple of these

http://www.warco.co.uk/1-Axis-Digital-Counter-7EEA10F65F.aspx

Matched with a pair of these

http://www.warco.co.uk/Horizontal-Digital-Scales-61C580D914.aspx



John
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.021 seconds with 21 queries.