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[MONAHAN STEAM MODELS]

Do you prefer building your model's hull from wood or fiberglass?

I have heard a lot of mixed feelings from a number people who all have different opinions on this subject. So I am curious to take a poll on this matter.

I can understand that it depends on the model but for this poll lets just talk about models who's hulls would have been originally built from wood. Such as Fishing vessels, Tugs, Pleasure craft and so on.

[Peter Fitness]

Wood for me, and I usually give it a coat of fibreglass resin inside and out to waterproof it. I have never made a fibreglass hull, although I have built kits with one included.

Peter.

[derekwarner]

Nick....with my 9 year long build of PS Decoy  ...[very slow] I chose wood...as Decoy was reported as sheathed in wood in 1891 so used this medium for construction....I am sure that GRP construction has its place firmly with production work [mulitiple units]...so I suggest it is personal preference type issue

With GRP you can produce simulated hull plating llines & rivited construction etc  .....but is very difficult  to paint simulated GRP wooden planking to depict the unique colour/tone/texture of real wooden individual planks.......... Derek

[nhp651]

GRP every time, doesn't leak, 

[Proteus]

depends but if it is having steam in  glass as there is more space and less wory about heat,  BUT if a lot of the inside of the hull is showing (open boat) it becomes more difficult, bvut MHB boats still look good in glass.


Proteus

[Colin Bishop]

Wood, no mould so you only have to make the thing once! And I prefer working with natural materials anyway A properly constructed and finished wood hull wll not leak anyway.

But, as others have said, it's down to personal preference.

Colin

[MONAHAN STEAM MODELS]

There has been some interesting feedback on this topic thus far.

Let's try to narrow down the criteria a bit.

I have been asked a number of times over the last couple years to design and produce a steam launch kit for our engines or one that could be potentially used with other manufacturers equipment for that matter. We currently have the equipment and knowledge to both design and produce either a kit with a fiberglass hull or a plank on rib "Carvel" construction type hull. We have actually designed a number of late 19th and early 20th century kits already in our CAD and Naval Architecture software. We haven't produced these designs yet because up to this point in time we have not been sure if this is a direction we want to go in. However since this seems to be a topic that is being brought up more and more in conversations, I think it's worth exploring further.

The first steam launch that we are potentially interested in producing was originally built between 1890-1910 using the plank on rib "Carvel type" construction method. The ribs and planking were clearly visible from the inside of hull. Some of the original launches produced by the same company, using this same hull, also had interior vertical paneling installed around the open portion of the hulls interior. So if the model was constructed around a fiberglass hull, this wood paneling could easily hide a fiberglass hull. So this raises the question, we will be happy to design it and produce it but we need you to tell us what you would prefer. I personally would like to produce as exact of a replica to the original as possible meaning the hull would be built entirely from wood as well as from the same materials or better yet scale alternatives. Being realistic, what really matters at the end of the day isn't what I would prefer but more importantly what all of you would. So please lets hear your thoughts.

[SteamboatPhil]

As you say different people prefer different things. I personaly prefer wood every time, but I do understand there are some folk who may not have the neccasary skill to produce a hull in wood, but have the skill in say fitting out a grp hull with things like wooden interiors, cabin's etc. Sadly this puts you in even more of a tricky dilema. Do you produce an all wood kit, a GRP hull with wooden fittings or an all grp kit with some wood fittings ?????.
I'm glad I don't have to make that sort of decission, but put me down for a wooden kit. 

[MONAHAN STEAM MODELS]

Welcome to my nightmare!

Thank you for the feedback. It is good to hear everyone's thoughts.

I'd like to offer both types actually, but I need to invest the time and money into one first to see how it goes. If there is enough interest then I can produce the other version. It's more a question of which would be more popular?

[gondolier88]

High Nick,

Great question, and well avoided asking directly which is better- we'd be here all night- tough i'm sure some people are....

Why don't you market a GRP hull first- it's easier to market- less time to build, 'less' skills needed, more appealing to first time kit builders etc, then use the popularity of the design to gauge whether you should bring out a wooden POF version for the more discerning market?

Greg

[Proteus]

one thing to think about is some people are put of by a all wood hull, you may find you appeal to a larger market with f/g hull they class it more as fitting it out as opposed to a.. big bag of sticks and I have to make a boat from that.

one or or two company's do two versions of the same boat , the F/G one is normally a bit cheaper, at the end of the day with a f/g hull you have more chance of finessing it. a good timber kit may not be much harder to build but a G/F one will be a lot quicker. you only have to look at your mates boats MHB I still have not seen a relay bad one, and most are top notch, I have not seen that many of any one Else's kits where so many are so well built.

Proteus

[MONAHAN STEAM MODELS]

Alright.

I think some very important facts and points have been brought up here. It sounds like the GRP version so far would be a good starting point.

Now without being dragged out into the street and shot for mentioning this, can i ask your for your thoughts on maybe a third option?

Recently I acquired a Krick Victoria kit. As some of you already know the hulls on these kits are vacuum formed ABS. I am aware that there are mixed feelings about this material too, however I think I "might" (don't shoot me yet) have found a way to get the best of both worlds.

Now what I have done I am sure has been done many times already ( well I know "John Bogstandard" has) and that is to laminate wood strips on both the inside and outside of the ABS hull. I did this purely as an experiment to see how it would turn out. So far so good. I think this might be the best of both worlds because you get a lite weight hull from ABS, the water tight membrane plus the basic shape. By laminating the whole hull in wood you will both strengthen the ABS as well as achieve the look of an all wood hull.

I can tell you from building my model, this thing seems to be bullet proof. I was able to plank the entire inside and outside of the hull in four nights (after work of course)  .

Being able to lay the wood strips down over a perfectly smooth hull form opposed to frames made for some very fast building times with flawless results. In fact since the wood strips laid down on the hull so nicely there wasn't much need for sanding! So this gave me yet another idea.....why not spend very little time sanding the hull only where it's really necessary so that the slight imperfections of the plank heights from one to the next and the wood grain would still be visible after the paint was applied. Again this was purely for entertainment and scientific study  .

I have posted a picture of the launch where you can just make out the planks on the red water line area. They are actually visible on the white painted area too but they don't show up in this picture. I think if you wanted to build a none painted hull you could spend more time sanding and achieve a nice varnished look.

Ok.... you can commence firing now!

Please don't be afraid to tell me how you really feel about this third option. I am a big boy and can take it! Plus I have fairly thick skin so you really won't hurt my feelings. This is in the name of research after all!

P.S. Proteus..I think you are right. I don't believe I have every seen a really badly made MHB Launch. They are all top notch.

[Peter Fitness]

A nice piece of lateral thinking, and the result looks first rate, too   . I can see how the laying the planking on the ABS would be quick, and accurate..This may be your best option.

Peter.

[MONAHAN STEAM MODELS]

Thank you Peter 

I can't really say enough how easy it was to apply the planks to the hull. I think even beginners with basic to modest wood working skills can achieve great results. I have found that there is some technique to it but this can easily be explained. The other trick is to use a fast drying adhesive. This is what probably made everything go quickly and smoothly. I hardly ever needed use any clamps to hold the planks into place.   

[derekwarner]

Nick......I can accept that a GRP hull in essence could be considered as a continious set of hull frames........but what type of adhesive do you consider suitable to glue real wood to GRP?......a 'WEST' based System certainly would work....but is slow & messy......& how do you temporarily support the planking until the epoxy dries?......... Derek

[MONAHAN STEAM MODELS]

Hi Derek,

I am not sure if this is "politically correct" or not but I chose to use normal CA glue. It really bites into the ABS and wood like nobodies business.

The same company who makes the CA glue also produce a CA glue called MAXI-CURE. This stuff is great. It is specifically intended for use with plastics and fiberglass as well as bonding hardwoods to both.

There website is http://www.bsi-inc.com/index.html

Look for the INSTA-CURE+ and MAXI-CURE 

[derekwarner]

Evening Nick....my lay understanding is that 'CA' type adhesives have a limited water resistance only  .....Derek

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Cyanoacrylate_adhesive.html

[MONAHAN STEAM MODELS]

I considered this when I chose to use this adhesive. Since I only had to worry about moisture possibly traveling through the wood skin to reach the glue I wasn't too worried about this since the wood was going to be sealed with many coats of water proofing sealer anyways.

[gondolier88]

Hi Nick,

Personally I think it's a great idea to plank over ABS- i'm going to do it on the inside of my 'Victoria'. It would strike the right impression on the water, which is the most important thing at the end of the day, I don't think you should put something onto the market that you simply don't like.

Hey, if you ever make a nice 45'' ABS version of that LIFU launch, put me down for one!!!   

By the way Nick, what types of boat are you thinking of making? I know you mentioned a fantail, but there's loads of those- have you considered a cruiser sterned lake launch- high displacement, stable, plenty of machinery space and a slightly higher freeboard than normal fantails as they look ugly with a high freeboard?

Something like this- SL Shamrock- 45ft- 1:12 scale model- it would perfectly suit ABS moulding!

Greg

[steamboatbob]

I would have to say that in my experience a Fibreglass hull laminated in a veneer plank using CA glues would still work quite well as long as the glass hull had all frames in place and the hull was keyed properly before applying the veneer and would still bring out a beautiful finish. there was an article in "Radio Control Boat Modeler, fall 2008" about how to acheive the best results as long as the proper work is done at the finishing stage of the veneer you should find it is a brilliant and very lightweight way to make a very nice hull.

the only problem i could forsee is if high temp is near the hull if abs is used.

hope this helps.

Steamboatbob

[kiwimodeller]

To add my 5 cents worth I would be more inclined to purchase a glass hull as I have never been impressed by ABS. If I bought a glass one I would then have the option of planking it inside, outside or using it as it came. The other suggestion I would make is to please find some different subjects including a paddler or two. Windermere launches, River launches, tugs and fishing trawlers have been done to death in all sorts of scales and very well made in many cases so it would be great to be able to order something that not many people will have seen, at least in the early days, especially if the prototype was an iconic steam vessel. We cant make it easy for you Nick. Cheers, Ian.

[gondolier88]

Hi Ian- no cruiser sterned launches- and at 45'' it would be in scale, but also would be large enough to make into a cruiser sterned cargo ship or passenger ship.

Only a suggestion of course, but there really isn't one out there at the moment.

Greg

[gondolier88]

PS I know a lovely steam yacht that you could always do, Gondola I think her name is... #

Greg

[MONAHAN STEAM MODELS]

Greg,

That's funny you should mention the SL Shamrock. I was thinking that this would make a stunning model! I would need to find out if the owner would grant us the permission to make a high quality model of this boat. The launch we are thinking of producing first will be the LIFU launch in 1/8 scale. It will be a model of their 27-28 foot launches. The model's hull dimensions would be approx. 42" by 9.75" in this scale. I am thinking that we might offer two versions of this launch. The first will be a completely authentic model of the original with the horizontal water tube boiler and the second version would be more along the design of the "Asphodel" launch where the original boiler was replaced with a vertical Kingdon style boiler. I think both have a unique feel from one another and would give modelers a choice to build which ever they prefer better. I have considered making a fantail launch but I think that there are enough of those currently to chose from already. What are you referring to as a "cruiser sterned" launch? I might know the design by another name? Do you have any pictures?

Steamboatbob,

Thank you for the heads up on the article. I will try to locate it.

I don't believe that the high temp with the ABS hulls will be an issue with the wood planking on the inside of the hull. Wood is a good insulator and with the particular model that I am thinking of producing there is a lot of distance between the boiler and the hull. Actually the whole steam plant is mounted on a stainless steel base which is then mounted on 1/4" marine plywood which is spaced up off of the bottom portion of the hull 3/4". I want to test all of this very thoroughly before I start producing anything and most importantly before I try to drag the rest of you down this path if ABS is actually going to be chosen for his project. Thank you for your insight on this topic. Everyone's feedback really helps.

Ian,

I totally agree with you that many classes of models have been done to death. I have a few in mind that I know nobodies seen before, but these will be produced after the steam launch projects.


Everyone,

This topic is still open to debate. We are not set in stone on anything yet. I would also like to say that any closed hull models that we might intend to produce down the road will be either plank on frame or GRP. I don't feel that for enclosed hull steam powered models ABS is suitable. I do feel however for open hulled steam powered models it can be suitable and may open up some interesting design benefits. If we did choose to go the ABS route, then I would say that you could expect that it would be well tested and well made. No flimsy junk will even be considered! I have to put my name and reputation on it after all!

Please lets keep the idea's, suggestions, concerns and debates going. It's not over yet.

[Roger in France]

Nick,

I think the way you are approaching this and the sharing of thoughts will result in a super kit/model.

Which ever way you eventually go is bound to be expensive (partially because you intend to do it properly and well). May i make a suggestion?

Could you consider selling the kit in parts? That way the initial outlay will not be so high and the full cost can be spread over some months. To ensure builders comit to the whole project each "part" price could include, say 5% or 10% of the next part price. Probably 3 or 4 "parts" would be appropriate. I know you have to approach this commercially but there is at least one model manufacture I know of who runs a similar scheme.

Roger in France.