Topic: Where do I start? `Shamrock` (Saloon Launch) RC Scale build help. (Read 24257 times)

Shamrock · « **Reply #25 on:** August 11, 2009, 09:24:55 pm »

Is this book any good? Anybody?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Planking-Techniques-Model-Ship-Builders/dp/0830628681/ref=pd_rhf_shvl_4

boatmadman · « **Reply #26 on:** August 11, 2009, 09:34:09 pm »

Luke,

Bogs is a very approachable guy, just pm him and tell him what you are wanting to do, open up a dialogue with him. I know he has a bit of work on at the moment, and in any case, you are still a way off needing the engine.

Right, terminology: steam plant refers to all the individual items thet are needed to make a steam engine run.

Boiler, this is the item that holds water, heat is applied to the boiler (by gas burner in most models), boils the water and produces the steam, steam goes to the engine via a lubricator, steam turns engine and exhausts to an oil trap (in most models, to a condenser in real life), and exhaust steam goes to atmosphere.

You really do need to understand the operating principals of steam plant in order to run one safely. In the wrong or incompetent hands, a steam plant can be lethal. There is a lot of stored energy and high temperatures in these things. I say this not to scare you off, but just to make you aware. You would do well by joining your local club and talking to any steam boat owners.

Or, go to Llanberis this weekend, someone there will be able to advise you.

I would have gone, but swmbo booked a week in Spain

Ian

Shamrock · « **Reply #27 on:** August 11, 2009, 11:10:19 pm »

Being a newbie and a numpty, the fact that I have the Wrexham & District Society of Model Engineers more or less right next door to me totally passed me by.
I went to Windermere last Saturday to visit my dad who was over on holiday from Cyprus. We took a self drive (free of charge, my dad still has shares in the company.) and went for a pootle around the lake. On my return to Wrexham, I spent Sunday and Monday searching the web for any vintage pictures of the Shamrock. Google was bringing up all sorts apart from the pics I was after. By Monday night, I had joined this forum and another, dropped the photo hunt and decided I was going to attempt to build the Shamrock. So I`ve not had much time to suss out nearest clubs and to be honest, I`ve been too engrossed in this forum.

Thanks to Brian for pointing out the club and I`ll be along tomorrow to meet some of you and look forward to learning the in`s and out`s of a steam engine.

Cheers
Luke

PS. Not sure why your post was removed Brian. I must have another read through the rules again. I learnt today that this site has some kind of automatic system that picks up certain words which can unwittingly be posted. I hope I don`t c-o-c-k up like that. My typing is sooo slow and would hate to have to re type because the computer says Noooo.

gondolier88 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 12, 2009, 12:04:52 am »

Hi Luke,

Ian has a great idea but to put a triple into a model is a very hard job indeed, three main reasons really;

1- Triples expand the steam 3 times (yes I know you probably gather that, bear with me) therefore high pressure (HP) steam is only admitted to the first cylinder- so if the piston in that cylinder happened to be at top dead center (TDC) or bottom dead center (BDC) then the engine wouldn't self start- this afflicts any triple expansion engine no matter what size- however in a model you aren't inside to move the shaft around to get it going again- so a 'simpling' valve would be needed- this swaps the first two cylinders from being a compound to being a twin HP engine with a LP cylinder- it does this by admitting HP steam into the intermediate pressure (IP) cylinder or the IP valve chest- this is only to get the engine turning on start-up though and would have to automatically shut off after a couple of rev's. Difficult to exercise in a model and even harder to disguise and make a good job of it as it would need it's own dedicated servo- in a tug or cargo ship you have the room to play with, but in a windermere launch there is just no room left in the engine casing- believe me it's difficult to fit any controls under it and hide them!!!

2- The ST triple doesn't represent the sissons in any way other than it being a triple- the sissons are beautiful engine, powerful for their size and literally run like a sewing machine- using Bremme(?) valve gear they had no noisy eccentrics and it did away with the crude stephensons link and replaced it with precise rocking arms on a layshaft.

3- Roger has fitted a twin HP engine in Shamrock because she doesn't need the economy of a seagoing ship- she sails on her water tank- and he doesn't do enough mileage to warrant the difference in coal- if you could model Roger's engine then it would be unique, reliable, powerful and contemporary to the boat now- if not to how your great grandad would have known her.

As Ian says, steamplants are not toys, even a Mamod can mame you- but only if you don't treat them with the common sense and respect they deserve- if you do they are a challenging, rewarding and elegant side of model engineering that anyone can enjoy.

Looking forward to meeting you on thursday mate.

Greg

gondolier88 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 12, 2009, 12:07:03 am »

If you want a good book on strip planking go here;

http://www.selway-fisher.com/SFD%20Catalogues%20&%20Manuals.htm

Also some lovely designs of launches on here.

Greg

Bee · « **Reply #30 on:** August 12, 2009, 01:12:24 am »

Rather than rushing in to a large model how about starting with a stand off scale one about 2ft6in. It will be easier to get the wood, be easier to transport (especially when you are older), be more child friendly, the engine can be a simple cheap oscillator. It is the superstructure that defines the model more than the hull lines so you can use an existing plan until you get the original drawings.

For the larger model make the boiler and engine as independent units on baseplates. Then you can remove and upgrade them as funds or experience dictates. There is certainly no need to start with a £2000 steam plant. Look for something like this http://www.myhobbystore.com/1934/Colyer-Miranda-Steam-Engine.html

derekwarner · « **Reply #31 on:** August 12, 2009, 03:16:57 am »

Shamrock........I must agree with Bee here in the philosophy ...build a smaller version first........we are taught that Moses did not posess any formal marine building skills......but he may have also had a devine helping hand

.......Derek

gondolier88 · « **Reply #32 on:** August 12, 2009, 07:58:12 am »

I have to agree in principle, however if Luke is adamant about what he wants and is as determined as he sounds then there is no reason he wouldn't be able to do it- I can see this project being completed in 10+ years, not a few months-plenty of time for luke to practice his skills and to save up for the right plant.

Greg

boatmadman · « **Reply #33 on:** August 12, 2009, 08:04:46 am »

Actually, there is a lot of merit in Bee's suggestion, I would suggest building a pracise hull with similar lines - doesnt matter what, using the techniques and materials Luke intends to use on Shamrock. This way, most mistakes, and there will be some, will be made on the practise hull.

This could be started first, and as skills develop, work on Shamrock could begin and run in paralell but a few stages behind. Its time consuming, but for someone new to this its worth thinking about.

Ian

derekwarner · « **Reply #34 on:** August 12, 2009, 08:06:36 am »

Shamrock.....could be some very interesting viewing here irrespective of your decisions.......Derek

http://www.edinburghmodelboatclub.org/gallerys/gallery13/index.htm

Shamrock · « **Reply #35 on:** August 12, 2009, 12:27:36 pm »

Ian,

Thanks for the advice on safety. Having worked in the offshore drilling industry for around 6 years (some of that time as a safety rep)and more recently got into building and flying RC helicopters,(club committee safety member) the importance of safety is something that seems to come naturally to me these days. Work or pleasure and even while driving, the safety of myself and others around me is second nature.

But that said, you are absolutely right, I could be the most safety concious bloke in the world, but that in itself is not enough. There is much for me to learn regarding steam engines no matter how small the engine. Only then will I attempt to run a steam engine on my own.

As you now know from a previous post, I now have the opportunity to go along and learn a thing or two about steam engines from some highly skilled enthusiasts at a club nearby.

Luke

Shamrock · « **Reply #36 on:** August 12, 2009, 12:46:01 pm »

Greg,
Once again, some really good advice there. Yes it would be really nice to model Roger`s design. I`m leaning towards that idea now. It`s going to be a while before I make a final decision and as stated before, It`s going to be a while before the engine is needed anyway. I`ll be talking with Roger tomorrow with note book and camera in hand, and hopefully learn a few things about the engine and It`s design.

Thanks also for the link. Looks very interesting. I`m going to order the strip planking and steam launch design manuals.

Fred Dibnah`s DVD arrived today and just finished watching episode 3. I`m getting really excited about tomorrow.

Shamrock · « **Reply #37 on:** August 12, 2009, 01:04:35 pm »

Bee,
Thanks for throwing a spanner in the works.

No , just kidding. Very good idea actually. Great link, thanks for that. If I was still in employment, I would start on this model now.

http://www.myhobbystore.com/1927/Colyer-Sl-Swift-MM1421.html

But until I find more work, I won`t be committing to anything. That link is now top of the list , below Mayhem, in my new RC boat bookmark folder. When finance permits, I`ll take your advice. Thanks for that.
Luke

Shamrock · « **Reply #38 on:** August 12, 2009, 01:20:23 pm »

Quote from: gondolier88 on August 12, 2009, 07:58:12 am

I have to agree in principle, however if Luke is adamant about what he wants and is as determined as he sounds then there is no reason he wouldn't be able to do it- I can see this project being completed in 10+ years, not a few months-plenty of time for luke to practice his skills and to save up for the right plant.

Greg

10+years??????? I`m going to need something to learn with and play with in the meantime, me thinks Greg.

The Swift would be my first choice at this stage if I go down that route.

But once I`ve gathered all the info I need and weighed up all the costs, I may just decide to crack on with the big one. I`ll have to wait and see.

Shamrock · « **Reply #39 on:** August 12, 2009, 01:30:50 pm »

Quote from: derekwarner_decoy on August 12, 2009, 08:06:36 am

Shamrock.....could be some very interesting viewing here irrespective of your decisions.......Derek

http://www.edinburghmodelboatclub.org/gallerys/gallery13/index.htm

Thanks for that Derek, yes, very interesting viewing. Although the pictures don`t seem to be in order of build. Looking at the workshop in the background, the builder must have spent quite a few hours of the build just looking for tools and stuff. I personally could`nt work in an area that untidy. I like a tidy shop floor where everything has It`s place and easy to find. Unfortunately my wife does`nt see it that way..

There`s a handy little scale calculator that I`ve downloaded from that site`s help page.

http://www.edinburghmodelboatclub.org/

Does anyone know of any other free downloads like that , which would be handy for my project???

Bee · « **Reply #40 on:** August 12, 2009, 03:17:58 pm »

Is that plan you linked the one on the Edinburgh site? And on that site anyone understand what is going on in photo 12?

boatmadman · « **Reply #41 on:** August 12, 2009, 04:42:40 pm »

Photo 12, if you turn it upside down, the bigger white thing looks like a moulded corner sink and plug. The other object looks like a beer pump

Shamrock · « **Reply #42 on:** August 12, 2009, 05:29:47 pm »

Quote from: Bee on August 12, 2009, 03:17:58 pm

Is that plan you linked the one on the Edinburgh site? And on that site anyone understand what is going on in photo 12?

Not sure about that Bee. This is something else I`m going to have to get clued up on. Someone here will no doubt correct me if I`m wrong, but I THINK the Swallow, Swift and Shamrock were all pretty much the same. In fact the Swallow is the Shamrock`s sister. If you look at the front end of the three, you`ll see It`s almost at right angle to the water. But the likes of the Branksome have a sloping bow with a slight curve in it. The one on the Edinburgh site looks more like the Branksome.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.visitcumbria.com/julian/winsteam-n5100.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.visitcumbria.com/amb/winsteam.htm&usg=__JdWjIlGqG7x6h_TlNS-sRb5xOBA=&h=480&w=640&sz=101&hl=en&start=33&um=1&tbnid=VshQ0uYy3Lk9kM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwindermere%2Bsteam%2Bboats%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1C1GGLS_en-GBGB292GB304%26sa%3DN%26start%3D21%26um%3D1

Shamrock · « **Reply #43 on:** August 12, 2009, 06:19:52 pm »

Would it be worth me getting this CD Rom? Or does anyone have one they don`t need any more???

http://www.mainsteam.co.uk/steamguide.htm

Shamrock · « **Reply #44 on:** August 12, 2009, 07:26:02 pm »

If I can get the Shamrock looking half as good as this, I would be a very happy man.

http://www.westbourne-models.com/topaz-steam-launch-4404-0.html

Bee · « **Reply #45 on:** August 12, 2009, 11:35:04 pm »

Thanks Boatmadman I see that now.
Shamrock - I hadn't noticed the difference in bows, got waylaid by the rear canopy.
In view of your current finances I wouldn't bother with books or CDs for a while. Read the build masterclasses and other threads, even ones about tugs and warships and you will learn so much.
Use your funds to buy a a coping saw and fretsaw and try cutting a few experimental frames. That will start to show you what kind of aptitude you have for the job and how much practice you are going to need.

derekwarner · « **Reply #46 on:** August 12, 2009, 11:54:47 pm »

Gents.......here is the explanation of EMBC - Gallery 13 - photograph 12........additional photograph of the combination navigation lights

This Gallery 13 has been ''tidied'' up somewhat....I preferred the older gallery detail of 4 years ago where a greater number of snaps of the finished vessel were evident

From memory, the builder is a retired aircraft engineer & was then involved in the restoration of a Concord jet........I think he is a superb model builder

.

I always wanted to understand what type of glue he used for the hull construction.....,.seemed to emulate tar...wonder if it could have been black Bostik? ...Derek

Shamrock · « **Reply #47 on:** August 14, 2009, 11:55:33 am »

"Shamrock" warming up for the Windermere Steamboat Rally 09

Bee · « **Reply #48 on:** August 14, 2009, 02:21:53 pm »

That's a nice photo which shows a number of key styling features. The Swift plan looks ot be a reasonable representation having straight bow (easy build), cruiser stern (build problem there), raked cabin windows (just to be awkward), rear canopy, just missing the clorestory roof. Another useful feature is the enclosed engine. that means you can start off with an electric motor (

) and nobody will see.
BTW are the windows always like that. Such a large center window woulod have been difficult 100 years ago wouldn't it?

Shamrock · « **Reply #49 on:** August 14, 2009, 03:32:19 pm »

Bee,
I took as many pics as I could, in-between chatting with Roger and his guests. My main camera`s battery died and I had to resort to my mobile phone camera when the other launches arrived.

http://s629.photobucket.com/albums/uu13/NonconformistZG/Windermere%20steam%20boat%20rally%2009/

Yes the Swift is VERY close likeness and I`m tempted to have a go at that first. Not sure if or how much profit one makes on these models, but if I knew I could build the Swift and sell her on with a decent profit, that would help with funding the engine build for the `Big one`.

I think the windows were always like that. Looking at the picture in the OP, they are the same.

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Author Topic: Where do I start? `Shamrock` (Saloon Launch) RC Scale build help. (Read 24257 times)

Bee

Bee

Bee

Bee