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Author Topic: Which ESC  (Read 7786 times)

Inkmark

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Which ESC
« on: October 30, 2009, 03:48:02 pm »

Hi Guys
I have a Mobile Marine Models T12 motor in a trawler but my current (no pun intended) ESC is very glitchy at low speed.
The motor vibrates quite a lot and goes round with a jerky motion until about 25% throttle opening.
Any advise on the best ESC to use for smooth low speed performance please.
Cheers
MArk
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DickyD

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2009, 04:18:57 pm »

Speak to Dave at   www.action-electronics.co.uk  he will have just what you want.

His electrical gubbins is excellent and service is second to none.

Or send PM to Full Leather Jacket  ak FLJ or Dave. One and the same geezer.
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Peterm

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2009, 05:29:09 pm »

P100????  Pete
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787Eng

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2009, 05:34:19 pm »

I've got T12's in my Imara and use a pair of 15A Electronize in her.
Great low speed control and brutal top end towing power when asked for O0

Nice nice controllers and they have a version with a BEC if you need it....

Mark
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wombat

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2009, 08:05:53 pm »

P100????  Pete

The slow speed control on the P100 probably wouldn't help with this problem.

You could try the P98 - did a lot of work to get it running smooth at very low revs.

Wom
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John W E

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2009, 08:18:46 pm »

hi there SIR Wom

i have just built and fitted the p8o into my latest bit of floating plywood ,and by setting the switches up in side the unit to soft start you can get the motor to crawl around
ah i have just read that the p80 is no good for a 12 pole motor which the T12 is bummer

aye john
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andygh

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2009, 09:11:43 pm »

P80s is tho  :-))
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stallspeed

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2009, 01:37:52 am »

Hi Guys
I have a Mobile Marine Models T12 motor in a trawler but my current (no pun intended) ESC is very glitchy at low speed.
The motor vibrates quite a lot and goes round with a jerky motion until about 25% throttle opening.
Any advise on the best ESC to use for smooth low speed performance please.
Cheers
MArk
An esc with a faster pulse rate will improve matters.

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wombat

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2009, 08:49:40 am »

Hi Inkmark,

The problem at low speed could be a number of factors.

If at low speed the motor turns unevenly - i.e it struggles round part of the turn then jumps or speeds up then the root cause of the problem is probably some asymmetry in the drive train or a tight spot. You are more aware of the effects of this at low speed because you can actually see the variation in speed.  The problem is worse at low speeds than at high speeds because the torque of the motor is much less and so you get a greater loss of speed as it goes through the tight spots - just like you cranking something with a tigt spot - it gets easier to maintain a smooth speed the faster you crank because the inertia of the object helps.

The best choice of ESC probably comes down to trial and error - finding one which suits the characteristics of you setup the best - see if you can borrow a number of types and see what does the job the best.

<!!!!!! SCIENCE ALERT !!!!!!>

Here I am going to disagree with the illustriuos Stallspeed. Experimentally I have found that a high frequency ESC is not the best choice for a slow running motor.  The speed of a motor driven by an ESC is determined by the mark-space ratio of the signal from the ESC - that is the proportion of the time that the pulse is switched on to the proportion of the time it is switched off. The greater the proportion of the time it is switched on the greater the average output voltage  and the faster the motor spins.

At low speeds though, these pulses get very narrow and a second factor comes inot play - the inductance of the motor. When you put a voltage across an inductor the current is not direclty proportional to the voltage - its rate of change is (V = L.dI/dt) - so when you switch the output of the ESC on, the voltage across the motor jumps to the battery voltage but the curent does not immediately jump to its maximum value but climbs up at a rate of V/L amps per second where L is the inductance of the motor.

The maximum torque of a motor is obtained (to a first order) at maximum current - you will not achieve that maximum torque unless your ESC pulse is wide enough that the current will be able ot rise to its maximum value. If you have a High speed esc, then the pluses, particularly at low speeds are very narrow and you may not be able reach the maximum current - so you lose torque at low speeds and the effects of any tight spots in the drive train are masde worse.

THe effects of this will be seen more with large low speed motors because they have large armatures and lots of turns - therefore they have a lot more inductance and the current rises to its maximum value more slowly than with a smaller motor so the minimum pulse width required to achieve maximum current is greater. With a high frequency ESC you need to go further up the speed range to hit this point.

Wom
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stallspeed

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2009, 08:56:45 am »

Just use an esc with a higher frequency.
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787Eng

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2009, 10:40:07 am »

So go with the Electronize!
Its got 3 modes of operation, low, high and variable (mode I use, changes switching frequency with throttle position!)
Best of both worlds then, low freqency for low down torque and high frequency for efficient high speed running.

Yes I did my trial and error testing with all the popular ESC!

Mark
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Inkmark

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2009, 10:47:51 am »

Hi Guys
So much information in such a short time, I knew I could rely on you guys.
For the record the present ESC is a P93 as recommended by FLJ.
The drive train is not the problem as the same happens with the coupling removed.
So it looks like the Electronize is the one to try next.
Many thanks for your replies.
Mark
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John W E

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2009, 01:09:44 pm »

Hi ya there Inkmark

Just wondering why you wish the prop to turn so slowly?

Is it just for cosmetic purposes.  

The reason I ask this is that the Moray Firth which I built and, which is a steam coaster -  I am able to make the prop revolve very slowly but, when she is in the water, and I have the prop revolving very slowly - it doesnt make any headway and in fact any slight breeze/gusts of wind will blow her right off course.  Before she will make any headway I have to have at least 1/4 revs on her; I think we would all love to be able to imitate the 'full sized vessel' in ballast - where the prop is half way out of the water and where the prop is thrashing the water very slowly and still moving the vessel forwards.   Sadly, though we cannot immitate this.  Unless someone can do it differently - but I believe there are no benefits of having the prop revolving slowly.

The last thing I would mention - I did used to be an Electronize person myself - but - after many failures on Electronize's behalf - not delivering on time - and kits coming with parts missing - I have stopped using them altogether - the last thing they promised to bring out  was a twin speed controller and mixer on one board - about 7 years ago - Have they done it yet?  I don't think so and they still havent produced a 'latching switcher' unit yet - not to my knowledge anyway.    So, they did have a good reputation but the last I heard it was still 4-5 weeks for delivery.......wait and see.....may be proved wrong.  Nothing wrong with products but as the wise say - suit yourself.

aye
john e
bluebird
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wombat

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2009, 02:15:58 pm »

Hi Guys
So much information in such a short time, I knew I could rely on you guys.
For the record the present ESC is a P93 as recommended by FLJ.
The drive train is not the problem as the same happens with the coupling removed.
So it looks like the Electronize is the one to try next.
Many thanks for your replies.
Mark

But the P93 isn't an ESC!

Are you sure you have the right number there?
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justboatonic

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2009, 02:53:08 pm »

Hi Guys
I have a Mobile Marine Models T12 motor in a trawler but my current (no pun intended) ESC is very glitchy at low speed.
The motor vibrates quite a lot and goes round with a jerky motion until about 25% throttle opening.
Any advise on the best ESC to use for smooth low speed performance please.
Cheers
MArk


This is unlikely to be an ESC problem.

You need a gearbox that will step down the motor speed to a lower prop speed. With the motor turning faster the prop will turn slower which will remove any jerkiness in the motor. The other alternative is the motr could be past its best.
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wombat

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2009, 05:42:23 pm »

But the P93 isn't an ESC!

Are you sure you have the right number there?

ARRRGH ARRGH - I was thinking of the P91 - it was me that got the wrong number!!!!!!.  After a while all numbers merge into one  <:( <:( <:( <:( <:(

P93 Multicontroller gives you a linear ESC function - the range of speeds are set by the throw of the control stick but it does not adjust the speed curve to give more range at the low end. The P98 gives you that function but even that will not be enough for really slow and smooth operation on a direct drive motor  - motors just do not like to turn that slowly. 

How slow are you trying to make the thing run - if you are trying to get the motor slow enough that you can see the blades as the motor turns then you will struggle to get smooth rotation with a direct drive system. Better to use a geared drive.

Wom
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Mrs Wom

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2009, 06:46:52 pm »

 :-X
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FullLeatherJacket

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2009, 08:32:06 pm »

ARRRGH ARRGH - I was thinking of the P91 - it was me that got the wrong number!!!!!!.  After a while all numbers merge into one  <:( <:( <:( <:( <:(
Wom

He has a hard day, poor dear. I've been driving him mercilessly to finish A Certain Product in time for the show.
All done, Wom - have a good soak and a glass of wine.

Ref the thread, the best combination we've seen of motor and ESC for very slow shaft speeds is the geared Darke Horse 785 and P98 (less than 30RPM). P98 also works very well down to slow speeds with the MMB900 but, as Bluebird says, speeds slow enought to count the prop revs are of no practical use.

FLJ
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wombat

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2009, 08:51:08 pm »

Do they still work?

And do you think anyone will be interested in something that plugs into both a receiver and a switcher?

Sleepy Wom
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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2009, 08:53:25 pm »


I'm all for Switchers. The more the merrier.    ;)

ken

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Inkmark

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2009, 05:03:52 pm »

Hi again guys
To answer some of the replies.
My concern is not for cosmetic purposes or ultra low speed performance but more what is going on in the motor.
As I said below 25% throttle as well as the jerky motion the motor is very noisy.
The motor does sound under stress and that is my major concern.
Cheers for the replies
Mark
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Inkmark

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Re: Which ESC
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2009, 11:26:04 am »

Hi Guys
Explained the problem to Dave at the Warwick show on Friday and handed over my ESC.
Repaired/modified unit received on the following Wednesday, pretty quick.
Installed and tested, fantastic. Motor nows goes down to 'count the revs' speed but
more importantly the motor does not sound like it's in distress.
Thanks Dave

Mark
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