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[polobeer]

Has anyone come across these (new range?) RTR subs or had a go with one? Might have possibilities for super detailing, etc

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Radio-Remote-Control-RC-R-C-Mini-Navy-Submarine-Sub-Toy_W0QQitemZ230399149440QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN?hash=item35a4dc0580#ht_5466wt_1167

Cheers
Simon  

[Circlip]

Quite a following on one of the American R/C forums on how to repair them. Originally sold off CHEAP by I think Wally World over there. Worth checking.

   Regards  Ian.

[Mankster]

Thats far too much money for what you get. One off the static diving, mini piiston tank equiped Graupner U-16's are better at half the price (though more of a pool/bath sub due to its size)

[Wasyl]

At £49 with free postage,it can,t be bad,i,ve got one of them Graupner U-16, there great for a fish tank,anywhere else,forget it,
This one at 35in long looks to be a cheap way into Subs,then if the novelty wears off,you,ve not lost a lot,

Wullie

[Mark47]

At £49 with free postage,it can,t be bad,i,ve got one of them Graupner U-16, there great for a fish tank,anywhere else,forget it,
This one at 35in long looks to be a cheap way into Subs,then if the novelty wears off,you,ve not lost a lot,

Wullie

Could be a writting error, but it is only 35cm (just under 14").

Specifications:

Ready to run and no assembly needed
OMNI-Directional Maneuverability
Operating by three motors
Operating Depth: 1metre (3 to 4 feet), please do not dive the submarine below this depth
Frequency: 27MHz or 49MHz
Size of Sub: approximately 35(L) x 9.5(W) x 10(H) cm
Battery in Sub: 4 x AA batteries ( not included)
Battery for Remote Control: 1 x 9V battery (not included)




As they say, "you get what you pay for".

[Circlip]

Same one?? http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545382

    Regards  Ian.

[polobeer]

Similar Ian, but with detail differences. I'd say they would be good for beginners wanting to get a taste of sub modelling before deciding whether to part with the king's ransom (plus having to re-mortgage the house) required to buy a scale sub. It's still a mystery to me why RC subs are so astronomically expensive, regardless of the cottage industry basis of a fair few sub manufacturers, relatively small demand, etc. You get more for your money with surface boats. I know many will disagree with me here, but if the prices of sub kits were reduced to sensible levels more people would be tempted into this very specialised hobby thus generating income for the producers and making up the short fall. After all at the end of the day it's just a GRP cylinder, with a plastic tube inside with many standard RC components.

 

[HMS Invisible]

After all at the end of the day it's just a GRP cylinder, with a plastic tube inside with many standard RC components.

 

You will have no difficulty guessing what the standard RC components are,then.
Who is going to start?

[polobeer]

Apart from the ADF pitch controller and failsafe, (which are not all essential for the operation but advisable), you have the servos, receiver, motor, ESC and battery, plus a piece of lexan tube and the two GRP halves, and if you're lucky a prop as well (not always in brass).

What else apart from a few detailing parts? 

[andyn]

I agree, how much should these things be? Considering that all the pumps etc are just cheapo motors with gears and O-rings on the end of them and lexan / acrylic is actually as cheap as water...

Anth Fildes' sub is the cheapest hull I've seen yet for a sub (even though it's HUUGE), but then you've got the hideously expensive stuff to go inside. Anyone care to explain why they're so dear?

[HMS Invisible]

What is so dear?

[andyn]

The bits in subs....

[polobeer]

I have to agree here with Andyn ... it seems like money for "old" rope more or less. When you look at the fantastic detail (and size) of many contemporary boat model kits, and the very reasonable prices charged, you have to scratch your head and ask why such a relatively basic object (the sub) is so incredibly expensive. It beats me, and I'd really like to buy a sub kit very much.

 

[HMS Invisible]

According to your formula,that fellow Mankster has ten mortgages.I'll put more weight on what he says.But off course he likes his toys and wouldn't power his subs with fizzy tablets and rubber bands.Look at his website where he shows what you get inside an Engel kit.

It takes ten people and the cost of a mortgage to finance these kits.I have still got £8k in costs alone to recoup before I break even and that doesn't include the 1,000s of hours put in.

[Wasyl]

Oops, :embarrassed:i did,nt notice the cm at the end of the measurements,I think its  time i went for another eye test,

Wullie

[Wasyl]

"It takes ten people and the cost of a mortgage to finance these kits.I have still got £8k in costs alone to recoup before I break even and that doesn't include the 1,000s of hours put in."

And people thought I was bonkers spending £3500,on a 1/6th Rc Tank,that was never going to recoup its money,but after all thats said,its the joy they bring,

Wullie

[polobeer]

According to your formula,that fellow Mankster has ten mortgages.I'll put more weight on what he says.But off course he likes his toys and wouldn't power his subs with fizzy tablets and rubber bands.Look at his website where he shows what you get inside an Engel kit.

It takes ten people and the cost of a mortgage to finance these kits.I have still got £8k in costs alone to recoup before I break even and that doesn't include the 1,000s of hours put in.

Thousands of hours in what context and for what exactly? If you are referring to kit production, then there is nothing unusual about that. All quality kit manufacture requires huge amounts of money paid up front before any profits start to emerge. For example, model locomotive kit manufacture by the small one person outfit has to fork out more than this for etched brass kits especially in O gauge or one of the specialised 4mm gauges like P4, but still manages to sell them at prices the average punter can afford. A friend of mine used to be one of the top 4mm model railway wagon kit producers in the UK and his financial outlay was huge, but the kits sold for peanuts even though they were highly accurate reproductions, but he still made a comfortable living from them. I know this is all relative but it does indicate that there should be certain question marks when it comes to submarine model kits. Why not make them more affordable so more people buy can them, and thus increase your profits via higher turnover? I can't imagine sub kit manufacturers regard their products like super cars, reserved for the very richest of people, but in effect the high asking prices for these kits has the same exclusive effect.

[Subculture]

This old chesnut comes up every now and again.

The simple fact of the matter is that cheaper routes are available into the hobby, and have been for a long time.

You have the various injection moulded hulls made by companies like Revell and Trumpeter. Kits are available to convert most of these to R/C operation at a modest cost. Caswell, Bruggen, lecma and Big Dave all offer kits enabling conversion of various plastic kits.

You have very affordable boats like the Robbe Seawolf, Lecma Galathee and Thunder Tiger Neptune.

You can also purchase hulls and kits secondhand, which reduces costs significantly. John Darnell used to sell his kits with a very complete level of fittings, everything you required except radio and batteries. However people these days expect more. They tend to want a high level of prefabrication, especially in regard to the guts of the boat. Model subs are considerably more complex than surface boats.

If there is the market out there, and good money to be made from selling 'cheap and plenty' then I'm sure someone will come along and cater to it.

You can always have a crack at growing your own.

[polobeer]

Cheers for your info subculture. However, even the converted plastic kits you refer to end up costing over four hundred quid (before construction). You can buy a state of the art O gauge steam loco in etched brass or nickel silver with full compensation and quality wheels, motor/flywheel and gear box for the same price, or less. If you've ever attempted building one of these you'll appreciate the complexity of construction and the length of time it can takes to complete (you need excellent soldering and painting skills). I know that subs aren't straight forward models to build or operate, but the loco above will challenge you far more and will give you real value for money. Much of the sub market exists in America and so any new or secondhand model will end up costing circa $800 plus, because of shipping and import duty. The well known German manufacturers offer either freelance models (I'm talking about scale subs here) or fantastically expensive very accurate models, well out of reach for most. Other than that one has to be VERY vigilant to be lucky enough to find a secondhand example for sale here in Europe (on Ebay or on this forum, for example). I know because I've been trying for months to find a post WWII "modern" example via those routes, and the well known sub forums in the states. My experience is that the modellers over the pond are very reluctant (or more usually, not all) to even answer your offers to purchase their secondhand models, let alone clinch a deal. It would be easier to find and buy the Holy Grail. It is all totally ridiculous and frustrating.

 

[Subculture]

Where are you plucking the £400 from?

Lets have a breakdown of costs here. I'll choose one of the more expensive models to convert, the Revell Type VII

Kit- £40-50
WTC kit from Big dave- $25 (£75)
Shaft seals- £20
Pump- £10
Bag- £8-10
Sundries (shafting, control rods, motors etc.) - £20-30

A smidge under £200, half your estimate, and I've been generous in my estimates, so you could save money here and there if you shop around and/or do a bit of DIY. If you removed the ballast system, and ran it as a dynamic diver, decks awash then you could save yourself an additional £30 or so.

Note I haven't included batteries, paint, radio or gadgets like levellers. That is unfair IMO, as other model kits rarely include these.

A cheaper kit, like a Trumpeter Kilo could be in the water with radio and batteries for about the same money.

An etched metal train kit is an unfair comparison IMO. Once the artwork is made, production of such a kit involves little more than getting an etching company to produce the required parts. Virutally zero tooling costs, no messy and time consuming glass work etc. etc.

I've not built a train, as I find railways aren't my bag- just my personal preference.

[Wasyl]

. "You can buy a state of the art O gauge steam loco in etched brass or nickel silver with full compensation and quality wheels, motor/flywheel and gear box for the same price, or less"


But!,this Choo,Choo,won,t dive,..unless,of course its like the one that fell off the Tay Railway Bridge,in 18 oatcake,
The problem i see when trying to get,a model that we want,is,How much do we really want it,and are there any concessions that we are prepared to make in order to get these desired models,There have been many post war subs for sale on Ebay,and other places,but if you restrict yourself to just,American/British,and don,t include the Russian types, then you might have a long wait,
Another thing is,how far are you prepared to travel in order to get the Sub that you want,Looking over the pond,can be very expensive,what with carriage charges,and possible import duties,Looking to the European mainland might offer you a better deal,There have been a few that have been for sale in Germany,and although postage was,nt an option, collection in person was,..It all boils down to, ..how far you are prepared to go..If its a bargain then travelling to collect should ,nt be a problem,

When i was into buying big scale RcTanks,I had to travel almost every time to collect,and I once travelled to a small village,near to Leipzig in Germany,a roundtrip of 1500 road miles,and about the same in sea miles,....and yes,I got it at a bargain price,and even after i,d added up the cost of getting there and back,it was still a bargain,plus it was quite an adventure,

Wullie

[Mankster]

Well mass produced machine cut sub kits from the likes of Robbe cost the same as or less as their comparable boat kits - Sea Wolf/ U-47. To this the only additional items over a boat kit from Robbe that you will want to buy is a pitch controller -Say £35. If you want to add a ballast system for static dive then a water pump and extra servo to control the valve is an extra £25 if you can build you self a circular PVC ballast tank. A propel based gas ballast system that is popular in the states is about £10 including that servo. RCABS - A £15 blood pressure machine off ebay get you all you need except for an electronic switch (or you can use a servo).

As for converting a Plastic kit, like the Trumpeter kilo, the entire WTC/ ballast system/air pump/ Motor costs £120 delivered from Dave Welsh- or you can make you own for £40 or so. The plastic kit itself cost little money. Or you can get one of the larget 1/72 Revel kits for £40 delivered. The internals for this will be similar money to that of the Kilo.

GRP hulls are more expensive. Subtech sell a 1/96 HMS Resolution Hull for £199, this is aboout twice what you may pay for a 1/96 GRP warship hull, but there is twice the material as it is a full cylindrical hull. The rest of the costs will be similar to the plastic kits above (just need a larger tube, bigger bladder and pump.

Ofcourse there is the high end, with pixton tanks, piston tank controllers, depth controllers, operable masts and other toys but these wont be an entry point into the hobby. The market will be smaller and costs increase due to ecomomies of scale.

[polobeer]

Subculture,

I beg to differ. The plastic kit conversions are far more than you would have us believe. A WTC kit from the States for the Seawolf costs $375 (circa £224) before shipping and import duty/VAT. Add the kit plus all the RC components needed, it then becomes OTT as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure for hoards of others. The only other option for the Seawolf was the erstwhile Lecma conversion kit which was very reasonably priced. As to scratchbuilding and DIY for subs, I would say that is very off putting for many newcomers to this particular hobby. I think it is fair to say that there are no cheap options in sub building unless you can scratchbuild, be lucky enough to find one secondhand (that doesn't require you to sell the car), or inherit one. As far as I know the cheapest scale RC sub on the market is the excellent Revell 1/144 scale Skipjack conversion by a well known American sub supplier, but this still ends up costing about £300 for UK buyers because of tax, shipping, etc.

As to loco kits, your statement is laughable and would cause many raised eyebrows amongst the model railway community; most are cottage industries and would have to do all the work themselves (like my friend who I referred to earlier) which is equally dirty, hazardous and labour intensive; sales of some obscure loco types would only attract the attention of one or two devotees, but they are still produced at realistic prices.

TTFN  

This is my last soapbox post on this subject

[Bunkerbarge]

I think likening subs to railway engines and surface models is glossing over a lot of the significant differences which make up the increases in cost.

No matter how sophisticated the train may be as regards boiler control, engineering, quality of manufacture and materials etc the fact still remains that the model goes forwards and backwards.  The most basic diving sub model has to at least have rudder control as well as forwards and backwards coupled to some sort of dive plane operating.  I think a ready built model such as the Thunder Tiger having all this for £250.00 is a pretty good deal but if you start getting into the entirely different area of static diving with ballast systems, automatic levellers, depth controllers etc, combined with having to have a system that keeps this lot dry, ballasted far more critically than any surface model and trimmed accurately it doesn't take much to realise that the costs are going to be on a different level.

Having said all that I still think there are models to suit every pocket and while we can bemoan the cost of an Engle kit the Robbe U-47 offering is still a very reasonable deal and converting it to static diving is a relatively easy and cost effective means of getting a nice model in the water.  There are models out there that can be purchased reasonably cheaply but I get the impression that you are after something failry sophisticated but you want it cheap.  The only suggestion there is patience because you are going to have to wait until you are lucky enough to pick one up that no-one else has noticed.

The bottom line is that this market, as any other in the world, is driven by what people are prepared to pay.  If they suddenly stopped paying it the market would dissappear and the manufacturers would be out of business.  They will only sell models for what people are prepared to pay for them and that's where you are coming a bit unstuck because you are expecting something for less than everyone else is prepared to pay for it.  You are either going to have to compromise on your requirements or pay more.  

As for the differnces I think the subs contain far more technical engineering and electronics than any other type of model so it doesn't surprise me to see the costs where they are and I do believe they are justified.  Regarding the volume argument I think that is a bit like saying to Ferrari "If you reduce the costs of your cars you would sell more"!!!

Just out of interest I started saving up for my Engle Type VII about three years ago when the price was about £1,400.00.  The change in exchange rates with the Euro has meant that it is now over £2000.00 so I'm still saving.  Having said that I will save enough and I will buy one.  There's not much point in complaining about the exchange rate, if I want that model, that's what I am going to have to pay.  You've only got to look at an Engle dive tank, and this model contains two, to realise that you are not just buying a model kit you are buying a very sophisticated and highly technical piece of engineering. If you compare the design, engineering and quality that goes into that dive tank with an equivilent component from a modern motor vehicle then I suspect you may well be paying more for the motor part and they are relatively high volume items.

[Martin (Admin)]

Irrelevant posts removed.