Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Fairey Huntsman 31 power  (Read 30349 times)

warrior193

  • Guest
Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« on: March 07, 2010, 04:56:49 pm »

Hi, i'm a new member to the forum - considering getting a large (46") kit of the Huntsman 31 with the GRP hull. The supplier recommends powering with 12 volt gell-cell feeding a single torpedo 850 motor. I have seen some old posts from 2008-09 suggesting that this is not the best power route. From experience in full-size boating, I would agree with the single big motor rather than two smaller ones (less drag, weight, expense, etc) I see that a number of forum members suggest going brushless - which I like the sound of. I'm assuming that going brushless will require something better that the gell-cell? would cyclone D cells work - or will I have to go full LiPo packs? My aim is to get a good fast plane (a bit more than scale speed, without going completely mad) and run times of 20-30Min's, is this reasonable? I realise that waterproofing these high power electrics is CRITICAL, as are the power cable lengths but I guess other modelers have achieved success with projects similar to this. :D
Any comments welcomed.
warrior193
Logged

HS93 (RIP)

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,922
  • I cannot spell , tough
  • Location: Rainhill UK
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2010, 07:04:31 pm »



have a look at these two, plenty of ideas also if you do a search for " Huntsman" you will find some more, also read what has been said about the kit you are about to buy first.

peter


http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21019.0

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21584.msg221995#msg221995
Logged

andyn

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2010, 10:48:52 pm »

Waterproofing isn't as critical as you'd think, a fast electric boat got a good dunking down our club a week ago (hatch off, boat nearly sinking) but it still ran again this thursday. I have a large huntsman that's yours if you're ever in the area, needs a little work doing and its a wood hull...
Logged

FullLeatherJacket

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2010, 11:00:55 pm »

Gel cell - avoid at all costs. Far too heavy and not enough grunt to supply heavy currents.
850. Avoid. Electrically noisy, crude and current-hungry.
For a single brushed motor, either MMB900 on direct drive or a planetary-geared Darke Horse 785, both on 20 cells with 50mm 3-blade prop or 55mm 2-blade. NiMH cells are good. No experience of LiPos.
Brushless - no personal knowledge, but it's already been done by a Forum member.

FLJ
Logged

warrior193

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2010, 01:41:21 pm »

Gel cell - avoid at all costs. Far too heavy and not enough grunt to supply heavy currents.
850. Avoid. Electrically noisy, crude and current-hungry.
For a single brushed motor, either MMB900 on direct drive or a planetary-geared Darke Horse 785, both on 20 cells with 50mm 3-blade prop or 55mm 2-blade. NiMH cells are good. No experience of LiPos.
Brushless - no personal knowledge, but it's already been done by a Forum member.

Hi FLJ
Thanks for your reply, I understand from other postings by you, that you had a hand in the design of the Huntsman 31 kit - can you tell me if the precedent kit gives the option of the open cockpit version? as I prefer this to the aft cabin. Do you know of a better kit maker for this classic? O0
Regards, warrior193.
Logged

FullLeatherJacket

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 02:09:03 pm »

Thanks for your reply, I understand from other postings by you, that you had a hand in the design of the Huntsman 31 kit - can you tell me if the precedent kit gives the option of the open cockpit version? as I prefer this to the aft cabin. Do you know of a better kit maker for this classic? O0
Regards, warrior193.
Yes - both hands, actually.
No it doesn't. You'd have to modify it yourself.
No other kits for the 31 as far as I know.
FLJ
Logged

HS93 (RIP)

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,922
  • I cannot spell , tough
  • Location: Rainhill UK
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 04:47:25 pm »

Thanks for your reply, I understand from other postings by you, that you had a hand in the design of the Huntsman 31 kit - can you tell me if the precedent kit gives the option of the open cockpit version? as I prefer this to the aft cabin. Do you know of a better kit maker for this classic? O0
Regards, warrior193.

was it the timber or the fiberglass Huntsman you wanted ?


peter
Logged

warrior193

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2010, 11:34:54 am »

was it the timber or the fiberglass Huntsman you wanted ?


peter
Hi Peter, I'm a little lazy and not a fantastic carpenter (although I have built a couple of full-size boats) - so am inclined towards the GRP hull for a easy start on the basic build! Can anyone tell me the name of the resident BL expert, I would like to try this power route (possibly outrunner?) and am seeing some reasonably priced motors in this field - the obvious problem being only able to water-cool one end plate. I am tending towards a relatively large motor and limiting the top end, keeping the heat down. What is the current preference between inrunners / outrunners in the marine world? :P O0 {:-{.
warrior193.
Logged

Flying Sparks

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2010, 12:32:58 pm »

Quote
I would like to try this power route (possibly outrunner?) and am seeing some reasonably priced motors in this field - the obvious problem being only able to water-cool one end plate. I am tending towards a relatively large motor and limiting the top end, keeping the heat down. What is the current preference between inrunners / outrunners in the marine world?

Warrior

Have you read through the two threads that HS93 posted above?

Phil.
Logged

warrior193

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 01:58:49 pm »

Hi Phil, yes I have been through them fairly thoroughly? - but I still don't see comparisons between in or outrunners in marine BL. I can see that inrunners would be more similar to brushed motors - and easier to water-cool - but is the extra performance available from outrunners worth going this route? I'm thinking - single big outrunner; fairly low KV (750-1200 area) fairly big 2 blade prop and possibly LiPos. I didn't see what size and make of motor you used - it looks like an inrunner though and I saw that you did move the prop shaft - was the original set up nonstandard (it looked very different from other boats of this type)
Regards, Brendon (warrior193) 
Logged

warrior193

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 02:11:34 pm »

Waterproofing isn't as critical as you'd think, a fast electric boat got a good dunking down our club a week ago (hatch off, boat nearly sinking) but it still ran again this thursday. I have a large huntsman that's yours if you're ever in the area, needs a little work doing and its a wood hull...
Hmm, that sounds tempting - at least that would avoid the niggling faults in the original kit ;D Is she in the 1/8th scale and what are you asking for it?
Regards, Brendon (warrior193)
Logged

andyn

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 02:16:47 pm »

It's the 46" kit, all wood and if you want it, it's yours. I'm afraid you'd have to pick it up though.

Does need a bit of work doing to it, but much less than buying the kit new.
Logged

Flying Sparks

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2010, 02:21:23 pm »

Hi Warrior

My experience of brushless motors in boats is very limited although I do have a fair bit of experience with BL motors in aircraft. My Huntsman is the 34" version so it's quite a bit smaller than the one you proposing to build so I cannot reccomend an exact motor to try. The motor in my Huntsman came from Giant Cod, it's an out runner of 900Kv and 35mm diameter, it gives far more power than the model can handle at very low currents, the highest yet recorded is 22A at this level the hull was coming out of the water! After a run of about 15 minutes the motor and speed controller were slightly warm to touch so I will not be bothering with water cooling.
As for choosing a motor a lot of internet shops give motor power equivalents to a glow engine. My gut feeling is something like this motor http://www.giantcod.co.uk/xyh4250-700kv-outrunner-p-404600.html would give more than ample power (quoted at 720 watts) and should drive the boat around at high speeds without even getting warm. Cheap too. By the way this is the bigger version of the motor I'm using in my Huntsman.

With regards to the propshaft I don't know if the original one was non standard as I don't have the plan for the model (I didn't build it either) But the new shaft is at a more sensible angle.

Phil.
Logged

warrior193

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 02:45:18 pm »

Hi Phil, thanks for the info - very helpful, I was looking at Giantcod last night and they seem to have what might work well - it's good to hear that the quality is good, as I was thinking the prices were too good to be true. Am I right to think that the design of the outrunner "pumps" air through the motor as it rotates, and are the standard mounts easy to adapt to marine use?
Regards, Brendon. O0
Logged

andyn

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2010, 03:31:56 pm »

That giantcod one would be far too small, thats the size I would put in a small Huntsman, maybe bigger even.

As a wild guess, I'd suggest a 600 size heli motor. The 46" Huntsman was designed for a .60 sized engine with power getting towards a kilowatt. I was going to use a 23cc petrol in mine that has 3.6hp.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7242&Product_Name=KD_600XL_1100kv_Brushless_heli_Outrunner_/_1600W
Logged

Flying Sparks

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2010, 05:26:03 pm »

Quote
Am I right to think that the design of the outrunner "pumps" air through the motor as it rotates, and are the standard mounts easy to adapt to marine use?

Brendon, Not sure that air is pumped through the motor but the casing does seem to promote air flow through the case. I think the thing with the out runner that I'm using is thats it's pulling so little power from the battery that it's just not getting hot, these brushless are very efficient that is to say that much more power is used to rotate the motor than is used to make heat. Unlike a brushed motor that makes a very good heater  :o

To mount the motor I fabricated some simple brackets from ply with some copper clad board to screw the motor to. I will try and post some photos later.

Thats a mean looking motor that Andyn has linked to, quoted at 1600 Watts peak power  :o :o Not sure you need that much power but then I've never built a boat that big.

Phil.
Logged

warrior193

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 05:48:42 pm »

That giantcod one would be far too small, thats the size I would put in a small Huntsman, maybe bigger even.

As a wild guess, I'd suggest a 600 size heli motor. The 46" Huntsman was designed for a .60 sized engine with power getting towards a kilowatt. I was going to use a 23cc petrol in mine that has 3.6hp.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7242&Product_Name=KD_600XL_1100kv_Brushless_heli_Outrunner_/_1600W

Holy moley, the Huntsman would fly with that - I think it would almost go WIG with this much power, then how would I keep the prop in the water? {-) Are you sure that 2 HP is really required? :o
Regards, Brendon.
Logged

HS93 (RIP)

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,922
  • I cannot spell , tough
  • Location: Rainhill UK
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 06:02:02 pm »



I think you will find this is one of the 600xl motors in red181s boat


http://www.youtube.com/user/pmdevlin1
Logged

warrior193

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 06:04:51 pm »

Holy moley, the Huntsman would fly with that - I think it would almost go WIG with this much power, then how would I keep the prop in the water? {-) Are you sure that 2 HP is really required? :o
Regards, Brendon.
I have seen the 48 inch Perkasa MTB on a single MMB 900 running on youtube - speed seems pretty good for that model (although I can only guess at the weight) Am I correct that I am looking at approx 30% more power with the Giantcod XYH42-50 brushless outrunner (with a much lighter motor) -compared with the 900? I would like to keep the ESC reasonably affordable :D
Regards, Brendon.
Logged

warrior193

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2010, 06:16:53 pm »


I think you will find this is one of the 600xl motors in red181s boat


http://www.youtube.com/user/pmdevlin1
Cripes - OK, I'm convinced %% %% -way over scale speed but hull looks able to cope ok. Is this the 1/8th scale version? I'm guessing that even in the sprints she's not WOT!
Brendon. 
Logged

HS93 (RIP)

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,922
  • I cannot spell , tough
  • Location: Rainhill UK
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2010, 06:36:25 pm »

its still not proped right if you look at the size of the lake you cannot get a run so he played acceleration , bigger prop will help top end as you will notice it hits full revs very quick, he also wants to up the batteries, the motor is still cool when running.

Peter
Logged

warrior193

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2010, 06:56:01 pm »

Thanks Peter, I have a slight concern with some of the comments re loose magnets with this motor - is that still an issue with this make, or is a easy fix/mod? I have been attempting to find a similar size to the 600XL in the Giantcod XYH series, as this make looks very inexpensive and bullet proof to boot - still looking but starting to go cross-eyed with all the the data sheets. %%
Brendon.
Logged

HS93 (RIP)

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,922
  • I cannot spell , tough
  • Location: Rainhill UK
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2010, 07:11:00 pm »

he is using the Align 600l second hand off ebay, the cost of the motor unfortunately low compaired with buying a good bullet proof esc.

http://www.align.com.tw/shop/index.php?cPath=22_67&language=en

have a look at post 27 onwards to get an idea
 
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21584.0
Pm him if he does not come on and comment.
Peter
Logged

andyn

  • Guest
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2010, 08:03:44 pm »

The early ones had loose magnet troubles but I think it's fixed now.

When you get it, take it apart (easy to do) and give them a good wiggle.
Logged

red181

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,795
  • Location: Wirral
Re: Fairey Huntsman 31 power
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2010, 11:50:40 pm »

Andyn will prob know my motor looking at his avatar! Its an align 500 heli motor, 1620kv (if my memory is right), thanks HS93 for posting info.

Unfortunately, brushless info on a large scale boat like this is non existant. We spent a long time trawling loads of forums for info, and it all came down to trial and error. I can confirn that water cooled on 6 cells (most recent video) all was very mildly warm, but, I couldnt get a long run in, lake was too small, and it was a very cold day.

 The problems with brushless start when the motor stops, and the water cooling stops, they dissipate heat at the front, so we are going to have to make a water cooled motor mount, or at least have a water cooling pump system when  boat has stopped  to cool the motor. Last time out, when stopped, 5 mins later motor was hotter then when running.

An out runner could cause problems, as you will not be able to run a water jacket or cooling coil on it, and there is always the danger of something getting fouled in the very fast spinning can. I also use a 2:1 gear ratio, 50 mm 2 blade prop, about to fit a modified 52.5mm prop. Standard 52.5mm was too much load, so I have trimmmed the trailing edge of the blades which will lessen the load, but keep the larger dimemsion, I hope! :embarrassed:
Unfortunately, the answers will not come from this forum as its not really been done, its easy to guess or estimate what performance will be like, but seeing it in operation is the only proof, Ive said it before though, the lipos are a pain, need looking after too much and are a bit of a worry, exactly the same problem is happening with a small brushless jetboat project we are toying with.

With regard to the models, 31 is the aft cabin, mine is the 28, Huntress is shorter than the 28 (Made famous by James Bond in From Russia With Love), google fairey owner club, loads of info and nice pics there, I got most of my cosmetic info here :-))
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.021 seconds with 21 queries.