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[vintagent]

I've been having a chat with a couple of friends in model boating who all decry the dearth of any downloadable plans to speak of for model boats.
They make the very correct point that the aeroplane fans have hundreds of old plans which come under the SAMS auspices, but we boaters are stuffed.
They also made the point that when a thread is set up[ asking for anyone who can send copies of plans, they are sent, bewilderingly to build logs!
Well, we CAN build, thanks, we just want the plans, Ma'am, just give us the plans!!

As dodgy geezer has set up the Eezibilt site, perhaps he'd like to do one for the bigger Aerokits as a step on from the tiddlers, or at least give some pointers to anyone who would like to get an Aerokits site going.  And PLEASE don't worry about copyright.
What are they going to do, sue you for advertising their non-existant product?

So, to recap...where are all the downloadable plans  (MAP are stupidly expensive)  AND
who's for doing an Aerokits site, with plans, instructions, history, pics, etc.?

Regards,
Vintagent

[HS93 (RIP)]

have a look at   http://modelfireboats.com/index.php   thats running doing a similar thing with a lot of aerokits type builds

Peter

[Circlip]

Need to watch your fingers on this one Vintagent cos the word "Copyright" swings into force and as the latest owners of the old MAP archives may not have paid the original designers any bags of silver, they hold the master drawings.

 And just as an aside, don't mention this to one of the forums respected contributers (Bovine skin apparel) as it's a sore point with a "Flee" seller. 

  Regards  Ian.

[barriew]

I also believe that Caldercraft own the Copyright of the Aerokit designs.

Barrie

[DickyD]

I also believe that Caldercraft own the Copyright of the Aerokit designs.

Barrie

They do and they manufacture the 46" Sea Queen.

 The 34" Sea Commander is currently in development.

http://www.jotika-ltd.com/Pages/1024768/Aerokit_Front.htm

[vintagent]

Then it's about time they got their fingers out and did something with them. I have it on good authority that their attitude has always been to kill them off by sitting on them.
That won't do. if they won't do 'em, we will by just swapping the plans around between ourselves. The onus of proof on "copyright" is always with the alleged "injured party".

I know of someone who is planning on reproducing most of them.  Good luck to him, I say.  All Caldercraft have the rights to is maybe the logo and arguably the plans, which can be redrawn in an evening, but still look the same and then with laser cutting the model is completely outside any notions of copyright. A lot of tosh is spoken about copyright. having been on the "injured" end of it and having been a fellow of the Institute of Industrial Artists and Designers I've had a good deal to do with copyright.

Let's sit back and enjoy on that one.
BUT... having a site that helps share plans that cannot be claimed by existing rights holders and also mentions Aerokits would be a big help.
The Fireboat site is fine, but isn't specifically Aerokits in the way that Eezibilt site is.   And where's the copyright on them?

Regards,
Vintagent

[dbninja]

just how long does copyright last?    most of the aerokits designs are 50-60 years old

what would be the difference between a ste hosting a few grubby old model boat plans to one that hosts thousands of copies of music files for free distribution???


lets have em all.... Aerokits, veron, nor-star, etc


get real


db

[The long Build]

Would it really be that hard so to knock up a new set of plans and make it free of copyright. As long as it was your own design ?

[dodgy geezer]

Hmm... a lot needs to be said here, and I'm too dog tired to say much, but, 4 what it's worth:

I would strongly support the idea of saving 'lapsed' plans from oblivion, and would certainly add any MarineCraft or other 'lost' plans to the EeZeBilt site if they came my way.

If anyone wants technical tips on running a website I would be happy to give what I could - but I don't think my site is a great example to follow....

Copyright is a strange beast - It was originally a 'bargain' between a creator and the public which let the creator have a monopoly for a certain time, to encourage ideas and creative works to be disseminated. In many peoples view, that bargain has been broken by corporate entities who have extended copyright way beyond its allotted time....

Be that as it may, there are a couple of points to make. First, if you distribute something which is not being sold and which nobody has any plans to sell, you are causing little or no damage. A copyright holder can ask you to desist, but probably can't justifiably sue you for large sums of money. However, if you distribute something which IS being sold, you could be causing commercial damage, and could put yourself at risk of being sued for larger amounts.

The second point is that if you are going to break a law - criminal or civil -  it is a good idea to keep quiet about it. My pseudonym is well-earned....

In my case I am close to achieving my aims. I wanted to get the EeZeBilt plans onto the web for long enough to be archived to the Wayback Machine, and hopefully kept forever. I would love to do the same for other old boat plans which are in danger of being lost. Aerokits plans are not in danger of being lost at the moment, though I think there is a strong case to be made that JoTika have kept them off the market for an excessive time, and might be vulnerable to legal pressure to release them. Of course, you would need to see a copyright lawyer about that....zzzzz  

[toesupwa]

lets have em all.... Aerokits, veron, nor-star, etc

get real

I have the Sea Nymph and Sea Hornet plans built...
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=850696
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=890616

.. and i have the Sea Scout and Sea Rover plans yet to come to the building board..

Putting together a site dedicated to the Aerokits plans / boats is a good idea and I'm sure plenty of us 'old boaters' would be interested in having a look at such a site..

However...

Distributing the plans 'for profit' (or even as a mass scale swap) might raise hackles in the realm of Caldercraft / Jotika as they legally still own the copyright to the drawings / design... and put the person in charge of the 'Aerokits' site open to being sued by one or the other... Not to be recommended!..

Two other points..
You only have to approach Jotika about Aerokits plans and they will sell you copies!.. but because they were from kits, they dont come with bulkhead drawings, you have to work that out from the top and side view..

I would point out that Phil Smith of Veron fame was still selling his plans up until his death a couple of months ago... and as far as I'm aware, his family intend to continue selling Phil's plans..

[dodgy geezer]

...
Distributing the plans 'for profit' (or even as a mass scale swap) might raise hackles in the realm of Caldercraft / Jotika as they legally still own the copyright to the drawings / design... and put the person in charge of the 'Aerokits' site open to being sued by one or the other...
...

Not only 'might' - copyright and patent law includes the concept that you must defend your rights or you lose them. So Jotika would be forced to act, or risk losing their assets...

dbninja has already pointed out that there are 'sites' which already exist where copyrighted material is regularly swapped anonymously - the BitTorrent seeds. Nobody actually needs to set up a new 'illegal' site - there are plenty out there. Of much more use would be gaining an understanding of the principles of copyright law, and the whole concept of 'intellectual property' generally. And if you come to the conclusion, as I have, that it is fundamentally flawed, why not address your MP about it? You could start by complaining about the secret ACTA treaty..... http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1687620/the-acta-treaty-evil

Myself? I am on the 'Information should be free' side, but I am much more concerned about the way lesser known boat plans have fallen into oblivion, and think we should do a bit more to safeguard our history....

[Nige52]

I fully agree with you DG, nowt more to add 

[Colin Bishop]

When I did the Jotika interview for Model Boats a couple of years back I was told that the reason the kits have not been reintroduced apart from the Sea Queen and maybe the Sea Commander was that Jotika felt that there would be insufficient demand to justify the start up and production costs. While I agree that Aerokits do have a distinguished place in model boating history, I do wonder just how many people would be prepared to buy them in this day and age and whether there would be an ongoing demand for them. When you look at what else is available on the kit market these days Aerokits don't really stand up too well in 'shelf appeal' with their 1950s cabin cruiser designs. Yes, quite a few of us might buy one for old time's sake but that doesn't necessarily constitute a market.

And I'm also quite sure from my discussions with Jotika that they would not hesitate to move against anyone they felt was infringing their rights, they've done it before.

If, as has been stated earlier, Jotika are willing to sell copies of the plans to anyone who wants them then they are still 'available'. There is no inherent right that they should be freely available.

Colin

[Circlip]

As a matter of interest Colin, how were M/B able to publish a Mini version of the Sea Hornet as a giveaway?? Did the smaller scale mean it didn't contravene the rules??

  Regards  Ian.

[Colin Bishop]

I've no idea Ian, I had no involvement with that. My work for MB is strictly on a freelance basis so I'm not plugged in very far to the inner workings of MyHobbyStore. There may have been some arrangement with JoTIKA as they are advertisers but I don't know.

Colin

[Circlip]

While I agree that Aerokits do have a distinguished place in model boating history, I do wonder just how many people would be prepared to buy them in this day and age and whether there would be an ongoing demand for them. When you look at what else is available on the kit market these days Aerokits don't really stand up too well in 'shelf appeal' with their 1950s cabin cruiser designs. Yes, quite a few of us might buy one for old time's sake but that doesn't necessarily constitute a market.

 With todays technology I don't understand the reluctance to remarket the kits. How long does it take to load a board onto a table, drop a disc into a drive and press a button? The old days of some poor s*d stood at a bandsaw hacking round a template are long gone. One comment made by a poster on another thread re the Lesro  pilot launch was that the bits didn't slot together, Todays rebirth of some of the toy aircraft kits enable you to build the fusegulge in yer mits nevermind the flat an trusty(?) plank we had to get as a worktable.

 Perhaps after Jan. next year we may see a change in marketing strategy.

  Regards  Ian

[dodgy geezer]

.... how were M/B able to publish a Mini version of the Sea Hornet as a giveaway??

Quite often this sort of activity serves to keep the original brand name in front of the public, and gives useful data to the marketing boys on whether it is worth investing in a re-launch.

So, especially if you are doing a limited run, the rights owner may give you their blessing and assistance, in return for data on the sales/demographics of the buyers.

I would be interested to know what sort of agreement or relationship RepliKit have with Amerang (if any)... 

[Colin Bishop]

How long does it take to load a board onto a table, drop a disc into a drive and press a button? The old days of some poor s*d stood at a bandsaw hacking round a template are long gone.

There's a bit more to it than that Ian. Producing the bits is just one part of the manufacturing, marketing and distribution effort. Many of the other components entail fixed cost regardless of sales - advertising for example.  I'm told that the most expensive single item in a kit is often the box that it comes in! At Model Slipway a new kit takes anything up to a couple of years to come on stream and that is with all the computer technology etc.

According to Jotika, The reintroduction of Sea Queen was partly to test the market. It looks as if the demand in commercial volumes isn't actually there. Manufacturers aren't stupid. If they think that there is an opportunity for a profit to be made then they will take it. Aerokits may be a cherished part of our history but basically that is what they are - history. A few old gents like us in their 60s with nostalgic thoughts of their youth don't constitute a viable marketing marketing niche.

Colin

[Arrow5]

..or as any purveyor of Oriental Plastic Zabi-doos will say " I`m fed-up telling people like you there is no demand for it" 

[dodgy geezer]

...
According to Jotika, The reintroduction of Sea Queen was partly to test the market. It looks as if the demand in commercial volumes isn't actually there.
...

That accords with my view. Note that that does not mean that Aerokits will never be marketable - just not now.

It surprises me that Jotika did not start with the Crash Tender. That would have been the most popular of the lot, and would have sold a lot better....

Incidentally, I did not know that JoTika would sell plans - does anyone know how much for?

[vintagent]

Redesign the kits for modern production and the copyright's out of the window. Call them Airokits instead of Aerokits and the copyrights up the Swanney.  But reproducing them it is only the idea of them and not the form. Change one line or far more so put them in computer form and they are totally new designs.
I don't really care whether someone else makes them or not, althougn I'd laugh like a drain if they did, my main point is a derelict range/model/boat is a public one.  Aerokits ARE derelict to all intents and purposes and the comments made about the range in private by the "owners" show they haven't the slightest interest in them, ergo...derelict.

I shall continue to send prints of my Aerokits drawings to any one who asks, and a lot of others I have or I've done myself.
Purchasable plans are way too expensive.  SAMS is showing the way but all the boaty types seem to run more scared.
Nobody's going to sue anybody.  We haven't got a bean!  That's why we want downloads or cheap plans.  That's why if the kits ARE reproduced they'll be very inexpensive compared to Jotika's package!   That particular guy knows his market and has done very nicely thankyou, treading on an army of toes on the way who thought the game was THEIRS.  Good on him!
Copyright is like fraud. It costs ten times more to sue than win or lose.
BTW, you can copy a VW Golf to the last detail AND sell it.  But you can't call it a VW or have TDi on the back.  And I used to drink in Braunschweig Irish pub with VW's patent tsar!!  So don't worry about copyrights.

Vintagent

[Circlip]

Whoa Colin, your dropping back into large volume country again. Two years? sorry, if you give Replikit a ring, providing you are prepared to pay for it, he will kit an individual offering as has just occurred for a "Mercury" A/C "Kit".

 If you want a copy of one of MBS er MHS "Archive" plans from what was the APS range, they take the master, or probably scanned PDF file now, press a button and the plan is deposited out the end of a printer/plotter. Quantities of "Stock" copies are not held "Just in case" somebody wants one. This is the technology we've had to accept as the norm, no more underpaid Draughties spending hours with Uno's and Rotrings and wafting Ammonia stinking dyelines about. Conversly, once a DXF file is created, forget boxes of stock on the shelves waiting to be sold and laying out vast quantities of coins of the realm in piles of formers, cos when you set a conventional machine up you need to ammortise the "Tooling" set up and make more than one to be cost effective. Not so with a laser or water jet cutter, only one cutting head so one sheet at once.

 I accept what you say with reference to Model Slipways New design to the market kit, but the Aerokit designs are already in existance, the formers may need plotting but to a trained pixel driver, how long is that going to take?? Marketing?? No more than a list on one of their existing ads, "Sea Whatever" Box of bits and plan ----£, and as far as Kitting one is concerned, I'm willing to take a wager that it will take less time to cut the kit than the National delivery service takes to actually deliver it.

  Just the will to do it.
 
    Regards  Ian

[toesupwa]

Incidentally, I did not know that JoTika would sell plans - does anyone know how much for?

When i ordered my copy of the Sea Hornet, i seem to remember the cost, including postage was under $10... It's been several years ago now, so costs may have risen a little..

 I accept what you say with reference to Model Slipways New design to the market kit, but the Aerokit designs are already in existance, the formers may need plotting but to a trained pixel driver, how long is that going to take?? Marketing?? No more than a list on one of their existing ads, "Sea Whatever" Box of bits and plan ----£, and as far as Kitting one is concerned, I'm willing to take a wager that it will take less time to cut the kit than the National delivery service takes to actually deliver it.

Ahhhhhh... If only it was that easy..

'Someone' has got to get the existing paper plan in to a DXF format so a CAD cutter can understand it... that takes time and money..
The equipment costs have to be covered also...
Then there is materials costs...
... and development time and money and materials to produce pre production versions, those costs have to be figured in to the price of a kit...

So, "no".. It's not just a case of pressing a button on a PC somewhere and out pops a kit..


As far as copyright is concerned, I've just spent the last 18 months producing a glass hull. I've spent 100's of hours working the design, plug and mold up to a stage where i can produce hull's... You think i would let someone rip off a copy and start producing their own (for profit) after all my hard work?...
I think NOT.....
If Jotika own the copyright of the Aerokits range, I would expect them to defend that copyright to the hilt...

Someone may well produce copies of these old plans and maybe even kit them again.. but they ought to be waiting for that 'Cease and Desist' letter dropping on to their doormat...

[Circlip]

Forget Glass Toes, we're talking tree wood. After a layoff of over twenty years I managed to "Generate" a plan in a few hours and some of todays graphic artists could have done it quicker, also, I'm not advocating ripping the designs from Jokita, it's in their court, wonder if the "Queen" is cut out on a bandsaw? If so, someone there needs a serious talking to.

  Monetary layout for "Machinery"? No, too many contractors would jump at the chance, it's called business. The "We'll wait and see" attitude sums this country up as does the "I've got something that you can't have and I'm going to sit on it" syndrome. Just creates resentment AND ripoffs.

  Regards   Ian

[Colin Bishop]

Just out of interest, here is a small section of one of Jotika's computerised plans used to program their routing equipment.

Colin