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[Colin Bishop]

I've got something that you can't have and I'm going to sit on it

I don't think it is necessarily that - why would it be? More likely they had the opportunity to buy the Aerokits rights for a reasonable sum and are holding them as an asset for possible future use. They no doubt feel they can get a better return at the moment by putting their resources into developing their Nelson's Navy range - just a logical business decision.

I wonder what their reaction would be if somebody offered to license the Aerokits range from them on a royalty basis instead of attempting to clone them? Has anybody tried?

Colin

[The long Build]

A few old gents like us in their 60s with nostalgic thoughts of their youth don't constitute a viable marketing marketing niche.

Colin

  and a few under 60 please..

[Colin Bishop]

Don't worry Larry, you'll be there before you know it....

Colin

[dbninja]

there probably is a limited market for them, but like someone else said...

the timeles classic the Vosper crash Tender  would be the kit to release at 34"




still a pretty boat!



the Sea Queen is just too big for many folk with modern small hatchbacks and quite expensive to make it "go well"  due to its size



db

[Circlip]

Yep, Routing Colin, the technology is too old and material wasteful, that's why I said Laser or Water jet, and I'm not trying to spend someone else's money but if you don't progress you go spheroids up. The sequoia programmes and machinery was available not only for industry but was toted for home use more than twenty years ago.

  Wonder how many realise the locations of some who do work , like yourself, for MHS? Not many years ago due to the lack of super communication speeds everything had to be done "In house" from a centralised location as the predecessors of MHS had to. Data transference and T'internet speeds has changed all that. Not only do you not have to physically take a copy of drawings to a "Cutter", the slowest part of the chain is getting the bits back from them, we haven't got to the "Beam them to me Scotty" point yet but the first part of the chain ie. draw and cut to those methods was available and I was using twenty years ago.

   Regards  Ian

[Colin Bishop]

Ian, I'm beginning to find your comments just a little bit patronising. Jotika use routing as many of the cuts they make are partial to achieve rebates etc. and they found that laser cutting left unacceptable burn marks on the wood. If you have had the opportunity to read the recent Special for Model Boats which I edited there is a description of the way things have changed in the publishing of the magazine. I write regularly for Model Boats and act as editor of their website which involves some interesting conversions from MS Word to HTML in putting the articles on screen. None of this work involves physical contact with the people I work with, it is all done over the Web.

As someone who wrote and maintained a comprehensive networked computerised commitment accounting system system for managing major building contracts in a major county council which was successfully developed over 20 years I don't really need to be told how to suck eggs when workng in a digital environment. And that was actually only a relatively small proportion of my job.

The fifty or so articles I have had published over the last couple of years or so have included a number of visits to kit manufacturers using various computerised systems to 'work smart' so I am very much aware of how digital methods are applied to the manufacturing process and, perhaps more pertinently, the general commercial considerations that apply when bringing a kit to market.

Systems like Sequoia devolop over the years and I very much doubt that Jotika are using the early system you were familar with 20 years ago.


But as FLJ says, what do I know?

Colin

[HS93 (RIP)]

After seeing two kits that where laser cut by different company's I would never buy one until they have improved dramatically , the charred edge makes adhesion very difficult,also the dark ring on the face makes some finishes imposable, some of the best kits about are cut by router, Martin Howe & Baylis and I have never heard a complaint about them (except price) .

Peter

[Colin Bishop]

Peter,

That is exactly the point Jotika made to me.

Colin

[Circlip]

Sorry you feel that way Colin, that was not the intention in any way, but just as you have had to be led by new tech. so have I, but many may not have had the insight into manufacturing methods and to inferr just how difficult it would be is rather dismissive. We chose to differ on this point but that doesn't make my opinions irrelevant and despite that you feel I'm trying to teach you to suck eggs, drawing pictures formed a major part of my working life and having them converted into finished objects likewise. The means are available, the fact Jokita don't want to do it is fine but lets be under no misapprehensions that it would take years and cost a mint.

   Regards   Ian.

[Colin Bishop]

I don't think I suggested it would take years and cost a mint. As you say, Aerokits are pretty simple compared with other kits on the market. Jotika obviously don't feel that they are a commercial proposition at the moment compared with the other irons they have in the fire. Whether they could be successfully reintroduced on a franchise basis with the franchisee bearing the risk is an interesting thought though. As DG says, the Crash Tender would definitely be the best place to start.

But overall, I think the market would actually be quite small in reality and once all of us 50/60 somethings who wanted one had bought one then the demand would fall right away. I enjoyed building my Patrol Boat at the time but if I was in the market for a kit now I wouldn't give it a second look.

Colin

[vintagent]

You guys just wait. I think you may have a shock coming to you.  Slight tingeing to the edge of laser cut , so what?  It doesn't affect proper glues and it doesn't show. You wouldn't varnish bare ply would you?
Funny how model boaters seem on the whole to put up objections to things they don't want or don't like without any knowledge of where they may be helped or where product CAN be done cheaply as Circlip says.
You all think you know about copyright. You all know CAD production.  In actual fact there are more ways to skin a cat in both worlds than most of you think.
Just wait and see!

That's it from me till much later

Vintagent

[The long Build]

I seem to remember that someone a couple of years ago brought out a limited production and improved version of the Fireboat, This I'm sure got coverage in either MB or MMI, I was seriously thinking about getting one but could not justify the cost.

[Colin Bishop]

You wouldn't varnish bare ply would you?

No, but you would varnish the veneered faced variety that Jotika use for their Nelson's Navy range which isn't intended to be painted. Horses for courses I think.

Colin

[HS93 (RIP)]

You wouldn't varnish bare ply would you?


Vintagent

why not most of the models in the aerokits range had ply decks and they where varnished with Indian ink lines.so are we not talking about aerokits now ?  or havent you ever built one ?

Peter

[RaaArtyGunner]

Redesign the kits for modern production and the copyright's out of the window. Call them Airokits instead of Aerokits and the copyrights up the Swanney.  


BTW, you can copy a VW Golf to the last detail AND sell it.  But you can't call it a VW or have TDi on the back.  

Vintagent,
Looks like you have been there and done that.
Very, Very good point and to illustrate there are several "Oriental Suppliers" who sell model DMW's car kits which look exactly like a BMW kit for a fraction of the cost, as well as others. Bought one for my son

Also the argument about high cost etc is invalid as it only relative to a particular manufacturer and not really applicable as to why they are not being produced.
In other words Jotika cannot afford to do so as perhaps their overheads and operating costs are too high, whereas a "Cottage" producer could.[/color]

[toesupwa]

Forget Glass Toes, we're talking tree wood.

I know we are talking 'tree wood'... that was to illustrate how much development time (and money) would go in to producing 'something' from scratch and bring it to the marketplace... just to have someone 'rip it off' without a second thought.. and make a profit from someone else's hard work..

[tigertiger]

As an outsider looking in I see inherent problems with this discussion.

Firstly, there is a combined discussion about apples (plans) and oranges (kits). And there is a tendency to 'flip-flop' between the two when trying to make points, to support the argument.

Secondly, as pointed out by RAG, there is a big difference between running a company with overheads (premises and employees), and cottage industries (or paying hobby) where you are producing in an ad hoc manner or even knocking off other people's products.
In reality though, if you want to run a cottage industry legitimately you do need to consider overheads, and at some stage you will be big enough to have to pay tax and VAT,  accountant and maybe employees. These would bump up your production costs, even as a cottage industry.

[HS93 (RIP)]

there may be another reason why Jotica have not gone any further with the range and that is they may not sell.the sea Queen was not a massive seller, and the number of the kits that show up on ebay at regular intervals unstated or partly built must say something . there are always some of the old kits cumming up unstated I got one not Long ago, I think some people buy them and open the box and close it again, also I think model boats have moved on with ready made hulls (that are the correct shape) and plastics that take paint well and can be worked easily. so is there a need for these kits on a commercial basis and would they sell

Peter

[Peter Fitness]

there may be another reason why Jotika have not gone any further with the range and that is they may not sell.

Exactly what Colin Bishop said in an earlier post.

Peter.

[dodgy geezer]

Firstly, there is a combined discussion about apples (plans) and oranges (kits). And there is a tendency to 'flip-flop' between the two when trying to make points, to support the argument....

As a fully signed-up member of Richard Stallman's fan club, I believe that information ought to be free. So, for instance, Shakespeare's words are free to humanity. But if I went to see a play being performed, I would expect to pay. For the acting and the theatre, but not the words...

Similarly, beyond a short period of copyright (and Stallman would cut this to zero) I would expect to pay for a kit of parts, but not the concepts embodied in the plans...

[Colin Bishop]

So DG, if you sweated blood writing your first novel and it was eventually published with all the hassle that that entails and actually sold well then you would be quite happy for somebody else to come along and make a cheap print of it, steal all your sales and deprive you of your hard earned royalties.

Just out of interest, what are your views on ripping off music over the Net - maybe not the same as the artistes I would guess?

Colin

[DieselDo]

You guys just wait. I think you may have a shock coming to you.  Slight tingeing to the edge of laser cut , so what?  It doesn't affect proper glues and it doesn't show. You wouldn't varnish bare ply would you?
Funny how model boaters seem on the whole to put up objections to things they don't want or don't like without any knowledge of where they may be helped or where product CAN be done cheaply as Circlip says.
You all think you know about copyright. You all know CAD production.  In actual fact there are more ways to skin a cat in both worlds than most of you think.
Just wait and see!

That's it from me till much later

Vintagent

Well it looks like you can enlighten us all, seems to be what is intended.
Sounds like you are going to produce a kit yourself.
If you are so good why dont you go and actually produce one not rip off others work.
Oh yes that would mean you would have to actually work at it.

[RaaArtyGunner]

Obviously we have got a little off track and onto copyright in general 

Who owns The Boat Plan? 

Obviously not the drawer because they did not build/draw the "first" boat/plan, so to apply some of the illogical logic commentary it is ripped off. 

The comment that there is copyright for the kit contents may have some merit,  same as trade marks have copyrights but as mentioned earlier there is no copyright on cars but on brands/trademarks etc.

As for Music there is no copyright infringement copying music it is "What you do with it" that may create a problem.  Same with books you can copy them, but for what? 

In any case to prosecute an offence you have to prove the intent   

Commonsense prevails (well it should) and all your own work, when push comes to shove may not be your own work and indeed may not be original, for instance influenced by training, education, what you observed, ie other boats, but you may be entitled to some degree of intellectual property rights.

Think this thread can go on "add nauseam".

[dodgy geezer]

So DG, if you sweated blood writing your first novel and it was eventually published with all the hassle that that entails and actually sold well then you would be quite happy for somebody else to come along and make a cheap print of it, steal all your sales and deprive you of your hard earned royalties.

Just out of interest, what are your views on ripping off music over the Net - maybe not the same as the artistes I would guess?

Colin

I am 'sweating blood' writing a web site, designing boats and publishing the drawings. It's free. I believe in selling objects, not information. If someone wants to sell my designs he will have to compete with their availability for free - if he wants to sell a loose-leaf folder with pretty prints of my plans in, and charge people for the loose-leaf folder and printing - that's fine by me. They're not very good anyway....

This subject of copyright and philosophy of copywrong or copyleft is complex, and not really one we can cover completely in this thread. I assume from your comments that you are not familiar with Richard Stallman's approach to this topic? As a good example the FSF have published a book of his essays, which, of course, blood has been sweated over, etc...

You can buy it for $25. If you want just want the ideas in in, rather than owning the hard copy, you can download the complete book in pdf form from the same site. For free. And that business model is working....

http://shop.fsf.org/product/free-software-free-society/ refers

Oh, and quite a lot of artistes are very happy with having their music downloaded for free. It encourages people to attend their gigs. The people who aren't happy are the music publishing companies. A direct connection between artists and their public makes their whole business model of screwing the music producers and music consumers at the same time somewhat redundant...

[funtimefrankie]

Think this thread can go on "add nauseam".

It already is