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[boatmadman]

would meths work?

Ian 

[Colin H]

Hi do you know what flux you are using. Different flux's have different constituents. I have found that whilst meths works very well on one type of flux it damn all good on an other so it is hard to be definitive. I have found that paint brush cleaner as sold by B & Q works well with La-Co but it also takes any finish of the model.

Yours Colin H

[Colin H]

Hi Me Again.

Before we go futher it may help if I give a short description of a soldered joint. Most people assume that solder sticks two pieces of metal together a bit like very strong glue. Nothing could be futher from the truth a correctly soldered joint has chemical properties as well as physical.

The solder I mainly use is 60/40 i.e. approximately 60% lead with 40% tin this solder has a melting point of 375` F. The more tin you add to the solder the lower the melting point this is where we can obtain and use solders of varying melting points on one piece of work. So with care you can solder 2/3 joints in close proximity without destroying the first joint.

For information lead free solder has a higher melting point than 60/40 so these two solders alone would give you the opportunity to do the above.

To try and understand the soldered joint we might compare solder to table salt. Table salt has a melting point of 1,488`F yet it will readily dissolve in water at room temperature.

During the soldering process if it correctly performed the solder will dissolve a very small amount of the metals to be bonded at a much lower temperature than the melting point of those metals. Thus the properties of the solder change and it is a completely different animal from what we started with.

This then joins the two metals by a chemical as well as physical action. The two metals behave as one and you have a very strong joint.

I am not quite sure if I have explained that properly but I think you will see what I am getting at.

Yours Colin H.

[Colin H]

Yet more.

They say a picture is worth 1000 words so I will attempt to post a couple first my large lamp

[Colin H]

Well much to my surprise that worked. The large lamp in the previous post is a plumbers general purpose lamp and I would think has limited use in the modelling world, except as I have said before fro preheating large lumps.

This pic show what I believe to be a very useful tool. It is a miniture blow lamp with attachable soldering tips, so you get the best of both worlds.

Colin H.

[Colin H]

And finally my mouth lamp sans rubber tube. I don't think these are availble now, but with some of the engineering skills I have seen on this site I am sure it would not take some of you very long to knock one up. The dims given previously were not quite correct as can be seen with the tape.

Colin H.

[DickyD]

Hi Me Again.

The solder I mainly use is 60/40 i.e. approximately 60% lead with 40% tin this solder has a melting point of 375` F. The more tin you add to the solder the lower the melting point this is where we can obtain and use solders of varying melting points on one piece of work. So with care you can solder 2/3 joints in close proximity without destroying the first joint.

For information lead free solder has a higher melting point than 60/40 so these two solders alone would give you the opportunity to do the above.

I am not quite sure if I have explained that properly but I think you will see what I am getting at.

Yours Colin H.

Colin you say "lead free solder has a higher melting point" 
Then you say " The more tin you add to the solder the lower the melting point "
How does that work  :-\?

[Colin H]

Hi Dicky,

Yes it seems strange but the lead had to be replaced with something. Usually copper and silver and sometimes zinc or/and antimony. There are some other additives occasionally used but I can't bring them to mind.

However if you look at just the copper & silver both have higher melting points than the lead they have replaced hence the solder has a higher melting point. I am not sure of the facts and figures but this afternoon whilst taking the above pics I laid an inch long piece of 60/40 along side an inch long piece of lead free on a piece of scrap copper sheet. Using the miniature lamp I was able to melt the 60/40 without any noticeable effect on the lead free.

Not much science but it proved a point.

Yours Colin H.

[Colin H]

Something for the weekend sir?

Whilst writing these post's a beam of light entered my head. After all these years I have suddenly realised why I prefer a lamp to electric irons.

Its because you can see more of what you are doing and what is happening on the work piece. I have only just realised how much info you get by observation of the soldering process.

The different colours of the metal being soldered can tell the experienced eye the approximate temperature of the work piece. This is most noticeable when soldering copper but works to a lesser degree with other metals.

Observation of the flux will tell you many things. For instance if the flux is warming and starting to run uniformly the work piece must be doing the same. When Yorkshire flux starts to bubble you are about ready to apply the solder. If the flux starts to look `baked or crusty` you blown it. Start again time.

Again the solder its self is a great thing to watch. When using a lamp you never hold it still for more than a few seconds except when preheating the work piece. I now realise that I am watching the solder intently and moving it around with the flame particularly when I am filling a joint. When completing a joint using capillary attraction this is not so evident.

So for the weekend if you have a lamp and some scrap copper or brass try the following. Without cleaning the work piece warm it gently and watch for the colour changes. If the piece is long enough start at one end and move the lamp gradually along its length you will then be able to watch as the work piece changes colour with the change in temperature.

Next clean the work piece and apply heat without flux, this will give you an idea of how quickly oxidisation tales place.

Next re-clean the work piece apply flux and again heat and watch the flux do its work.

Finally again clean the work piece, apply flux and heat away from the cleaned area. As the flux starts to bubble touch the work piece with cleaned solder, gradually increasing the length of time you leave the solder on the work piece. Keep doing this until the solder melts. This will give you some idea of what colour the work piece should be when its at the right temperature and also what the flux looks like at the same time.

To all you who have gone through this process before please forgive me but I have no idea at what stage people are so thought it best to start at the beginning as I was taught.

Yours Colin H.

[catengineman]

Brings back memories I have taken for granted for so long now THANK YOU

R,

[Colin H]

Well I am not sure how this is going down with you or if anyone tried the above experiment but we shall press on.

The easiest soldered joint is a capillary joint i.e. the two metals to be joined are so close together that the solder is drawn into the joint by capillary attraction. This joint if done correctly is extremely strong and will take an awful amount of stress.

As an exercise try the following simple joint. Get two pieces of similar metal i.e. both brass that have flats on them.

Clean the flat surface of one, flux warm and apply solder as you observe the solder melt leave the lamp in place for a few seconds more. Then with a lint free cloth quickly wipe away the excess solder, this should leave you with a nice shiny tinned piece of metal.
Repeat the process on the otherwork piece and allow both to cool.

Now again clean both tinned surfaces `I would use fine grade steel wool` and apply your flux. Place both work pieces together with the tinned faces touching. Make sure they cannot move and apply the heat source. You will observe the tinning solder start to melt as this happens just touch the joint with your solder enough to melt a very small amount, this solder will run into the joint.

Remove the heat source and leave to cool, do not move the work piece at all until it as cooled properly. Remembering that if the joint is disturbed before the solder has solidified the joint will crack and lose all its strength.

Once the joint has cooled enough to be easily handled try and part the work piece with a screw driver and hammer or something similar. If the joint has been correctly made it will take some considerable force, usually enough to damage the brass work piece.

If it parts easily you have got something wrong and you should try again. The usual problems would be, not cleaned properly, not enough heat or moved to quickly and the joint has cracked.

Good luck Colin H.

[Colin H]

Now to reply properly to Richards original question which I believe was about handrails.

About 18 months ago I was working on a Robbe Atlantis and had just started to think about the handrails for the boat when I realised that as usual I Had not thought enough in advance. I was working on polishing the planked deck when I thought about the handrails. I also realised that in order for me to make anything like a job of it I was going to have to solder the wire to the staunchions whilst they were in place on the deck.

First job scrap the steel wire supplied by Robbe and purchase some brass wire of the correct dia. This would lessen the risk of damage as I could work at a lower temperature. At the same time as I bought the new wire I purchased some spare staunchions so that I could have a wee practice before going near the model.

The practice went OK but as shall be seen later it reminded me to make sure the staunchions were exactly vertical before proceeding.

The holes were drilled in the deck to form a tight fit and the staunchions were placed in the correct position having pre-cleaned the holes in them. The brass wire was again pre-cleaned, passed through the staunchions and bent to shape.

Having no heat sink I purloined a old tea towel from the kitchen and cut it into 2" wide strips some 4" long and some 6" long, these were soaked in cold water. The 6" strips were used flat on the deck to protect it and one of the four inch strips was wrapped around the bottom of the staunchion's so that I could work on the lower of the two rails first.

Using the small amount of movement in the staunchions I then cleaned the brass wire yet again, this time applying flux as I went. Moving everything back into postion I wiped of any surplus flux. Made sure I was comfortable and that everything was to hand, cleaned my solder wire and lit the miniature lamp.

Starting on one of the outer staunchions I preheated the staunchions below the bottom joint until I saw flux run out of the joint at that time I moved my lamp to play on the wire to the left of the staunchion (I am right handed) so hold my lamp in my left hand and my solder wire in my right. At the appropriate time I applied a small amount of solder to the right hand side of the staunchion. This as the effect of that when the solder melts it moves toward the heat source and so into the capillary joint formed by the staunchion and the wire. Lamp out, check everything, all OK proceed to the staunchion furthest form the one I have just worked on and repeat the process.

When all the lower joints had been made I moved up to the top joints wrapping an extra damp cloth around the lower joints and repeated the whole procedure. After I had finished and all was cool I removed the completed rails and washed them to remove any flux, this was made easy because I had used `traditional` type flux.

Luckily I put the test piece to one side as a couple of weeks later a friend asked if solder joints would withstand a chroming process. I gave him the test piece and we now know the answer is yes.

Yours Colin H.

[portside II]

Hi Cplin i have been reading your post's regarding soldering
Not sure of the ins and outs of profesional soldering and not knowing about the different typs of flux etc i find the propper ways interesting .
I too have been soldering for some time what with small electrical jobs and then with the hobby doing railings etc and have always used for brass a flux called Templers telux (milder) for joining railings with a 100w weller gun and a selection of solders depending on the size of the job ,mostly the flux cored type and more recently lead free plumbers and silver solder .
Now am i going the right way as this method works for me and what other forms of flux would work better than what i am using?
I also like the idea of using wet rags for heat shunts i normaly just use a pair of clips.
daz 

[Colin H]

Hi Daz,

You said yourself it works for you and that is the most important thing. Templers is a very good flux but make sure you stick to the mild variety. They also do another type which is a lot more aggressive and the residue is much harder to get rid of.

Not sure I would go down the silver solder route, it takes considerable more heat and therefore has the possibility to cause more damage. However if you need the strength you don't have a choice.

Once again if you have found something that works for you stay with it. Your skills will only get better the more you do.

Yours Colin H.

[Colin H]

Just a thought.

A couple of items that may well interest you. First a plumbers soldering mat, this mat is approximately 10"x10" and is fairly impervious to heat. They are obtainable from any plumbers merchant in the UK and cost less than £10.

Second Plumbers Black. This is a compound you mix with water `we used to spit in the tub` and mix to form a creamy paste. After you have cleaned your work piece you paint on the black to cover areas you do not want solder to attach to and allow it to dry. After your work is complete it readily washes off with water. This is an old product and I only know off one place were it can be obtained, though there must be others. www.lunns.net

Yours Colin H.

[portside II]

thank's for the info Colin,
Just got back in with the new solder station ,reading the destructions make me think the thing was not meant for me but some boffin in a laboratory.
for example when describing the station it read,

"due to the usage of highly electrified components the heat timesuposes to be short" say what!??

"it is installed with 50tile electric soldering irons, and the sutable usage scope is extensive" ??

in operation it reads,

"to make welding work perfect you have to use the propper welding rod and operate the weld machine accurately.Electric welding rods with colophony is advised to use Any welding preparation with halogen is forbidden." now whats that all about ??

if any one want confusing as much as me i can scan the instructions .
also if you understand them and can put them into english  help !!
daz

[Colin H]

Hi Daz I am beat. :-\ :-\

There is another thread about translating English I think this one should be on there.

Good luck mate.

Yours Colin H.

[gribeauval]

How about this!!

"due to the usage of highly electrified components the heat timesuposes to be short" say what!??

High quality components ensure a short heating up time. 

"it is installed with 50tile electric soldering irons, and the sutable usage scope is extensive" ??

The 50 watt iron is suitable for a wide range of jobs. ::)

"to make welding work perfect you have to use the propper welding rod and operate the weld machine accurately.Electric welding rods with colophony is advised to use Any welding preparation with halogen is forbidden." now whats that all about ??

Use the correct solder for the job and work accurately. Neutral resin cored solder is recommended, active chlorine based fluxes are not to be used.


Does it make sense now Daz??

[Colin H]

Have you any idea how much money you could make as an interpreter.

Yours Colin H.

[bigford]

how about soldering the capactor to the crap metal motor cans >:(
got the solder got the flux burnt myself 3 times and still no sticky >:(

[HS93 (RIP)]

There easy, if you take a file or mini grinder to the spot you want to solder and clean the leads ,and then use a iron capable of heating the spot quick so as not to overheat the can and end bell. I had to do about a hundred for some one once . of mixed motors 05 type.

Peter

[portside II]

cheers gribeauval  your explanation works well the thing about halogen got me ??? , yeh the desructions are in a language all of their own . 
Bigford , Peter is right you have to treat the area your going to solder/weld the same as you would when you are tinning wire ,clean it first .
I used to repair cb radios and fit them along with their antenna and coax so when i fitted my first pl259 plug the solder would not stick ,until my tutor told me to clean off the enamel from the core wire with a knife first ,and sure enough a prefect joint  .
daz

[Colin H]

Another little tip bigford, try tinning the wires first and leaving a blob of solder on them. Providing you flux the can and the tinned wire you then only have to hold the iron as everything else is in place.


Yours Colin H.