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[Colin Bishop]

There is lots of info available on dazzle painting in both world wars. As Malcolm says, the idea was not to make the ship invisible but to confuse enemy submarine commanders as to its size, course and speed. As the original schemes were designed to be viewed against a seascape/skyscape I'm not sure whether photographing a model in a pond setting could reproduce the intended effect.

For some further info see:

http://gotouring.com/razzledazzle/articles/dazzle.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage

http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Marina/8163/dazzle.htm

There's lots more if you want to dig around.

Can I have my F14 now John? 

[OneBladeMissing]

I believe a large model of the Titanic borrowed from a museum (Liverpool?) was used for the film "Raise The Titanic".  The film company ruined the model apparently.
Back in the seventies, Yorkshire TV did a piece about a couple of the younger members of Leeds MBC taking part in the world endurance championship eliminators. The lake in Roundhay Park was a bit icy, but the lads put their boats through their paces for the cameras. Then the presenters had a go with the boats. There was a specky kid whose name I can't remember and Kathy Somebody-or-other (later to become Richard Whiteleys bird). She proceeded to drive the boat directly onto the ice much to her amusement and that of her trendy YTV colleagues.
Media people? Forget it! They're a bunch of muppets.

[John W E]

Hi ya there Admiral, be careful, very very careful - do you realise you have given more information out about the dazzle camouflage than the BBC Researchers have been able to find out about in 4 months and you did this in one day my friend. 

Aye
John E
Bluebird (free F14 Robbe wanted)

[Colin Bishop]

Five minutes John! 

(It's not what you know but where to find it!)

[slewis]

Heres a couple more



Thats if I have linked to them correctly 

[J.beazley]

blimey   looks like your all doing the research for the researchers 

Jay

[Colin Bishop]

Ship collides with Zebra crossing! read all about it!! 

[Liverbudgie2]

I believe a large model of the Titanic borrowed from a museum (Liverpool?) was used for the film "Raise The Titanic".  The film company ruined the model apparently.

Wrong, it was used in a "Night to Remember". The one to which you are thinking about was an extra large model, I can't remember the actual size but it was kept afloat undercover in Malta until fairly recently, may still be there for all I know.

If anybody does consider letting them or any other media use their models make sure that you have a cast iron contract which covers some of the following:

1) The daily rate; which should not be less than £150 per day. None of this for the good of the hobby get your name in lights rubbish, this is business.
2) Ensure that ALL your expenses will be covered.
3) Ensure that they, and you, are fully covered by Public Liability Insurance at their expense.
4) That they have insured the model itself at their expense.
5) if your away from home ensure that they have arranged you accommodation and meals and that they are paying for same.

Also make sure that the contract is signed by all parties BEFORE you set out or filming begins, under no circumstances be lulled by promises of we’ll sort all that our when you get here rubbish.

Remember, always, that this is business, be and act professionally and, not as an amateur. If in doubt get professional advice.

Budgie

[John W E]

now ya done it Colin, roadkill on big scale - Animal Rights people next as zebra have feelings you know - be getting wrong for copying the animal camouflage  

aye john e bluebird

[slewis]

All that said and done it IS a fascinating idea that was done and from what I read worked to a certain degree as well .
The idea that a sub periscope viewer couldn't differentiate and make up his mind in which direction the ship was travelling (given the different bows he could see) is surely a testament to the idea .
I could not give a fig about the bbc itv or whoever from the media asking about this . If they were serious they could get ALL and ANY information from the RN or MOD as its now NOT classified information.
Or they could just get smart and either google for it or look under images in altavista as it has more pics .
I dont get why they cant just mock up a ship and paint the thing . The viewer isnt going to notice and if mine and your money IS paying for it I would expect a good return for it.

Sorry I was on the verge of going off on one ......

[John W E]

hi ya slewis,
I think the name of the game is the BBC take the UK's money in licence fees and for what the average person sees on the BBC channels i dint think is worth it. And for them to come on this forum and ask us for help is a bit of a kick to us modellers in the private parts considering the knowledge of the average member of this forum, if it was put in to pounds sterling, we could buy the BBC at least a million times. So let us see if the BBC can put the funds that they waste on non-entertainment and uneducational programs in to some true fact finding and well documented programs without coming to us to ask for our aid and abusing us as has been said by many respectable modellers. These modellers, I know have high respect in the modelling world, therefore, those with less experience with the media should take note of these modellers with dealings with the media.

Aye John E

Bluebird

[tigertiger]

...information from the RN or MOD as its now NOT classified information.

So there should exist Admirality reports on the effectiveness of Dazzle.
Was it effective at protecting ships, or did it just give the public and ships crews a greater sense of security.

[tobyker]

slewis' pictures of extreme dazzle are brilliant. I have also seen some smaller boats with forward quarter or 2/3 of the length greyed out and a false bowwave painted on, to disguise the length of the ship. I'm not sure that's strictly dazzle. Also contrast and compare the British army town camouflage for tanks - mimicking stone/brick so they could hide among the office blocks. And of course, " I went to buy a pair of camo trousers, but I couldn't see any in the shop".  But as said above, dazzle was never expected to convey invisibility, but to mislead the man at the periscope (or director) as to identity and heading. 

[cdsc123]

Let's hope it's not the same bunch of clowns who filmed a Mr Motivator episode out here. They contacted us to ask whether we could provide a skiboat for a film shoot poncing around in the bay, we said sure, it will cost so much per hour/day, Oh no they say, we haven't the budget for that, please do it out the goodness of your heart. We say OK, just pay the petrol plus 20 quid for the driver. Oh no they say, we haven't the budget for that (!) so we say OK, we'll provide boat, driver and petrol for a day provided our company is thanked on the end credits. Oh yes they say, no problem at all. Did they thank us?
No.

Believe the warnings, they are all apparently as bad as each other.

[White Ensign]

There had been on the German Navy some experiments as well with various types of camouflage, some had been tried even with the S-boats (or E-boats). It was found, that a real camouflage of a sarp-edged object on a flat ground like the sea, with an equal background like the horizon- is not possible. Though, any camouflage could just lead to a scheme to confuse the rangefinder, or hide a boat at very special circumstances (like in the foresaid Mountbatten-Pink).
The trouble is (as stated before) that: A modelship, camouflaged in which way ever should have been filmed or photographed on a distance of the (minimum) foresaid 100 meters, which will give scale 1:100 a distance of 10000 Meters or approx. 6 miles. 6 Miles was avery colse range, even in WW1. Then we don`t have to forget the weather-circumstances. For the focus, 100 Meters on a model does not give the same humidity or mist like it is scale 1:1 at about 10000 Meters on the origin. Though- if you want to bring up evidence by filming a modelboat about camouflage, and adopt it to the origin you`ll never have the same effect. The evidence for the effectivity of any camouflage (dazzled or not) by filming a model will be...... Nill!

My two-pennys,

Jörg

P.S.: The experience by media-companies in Germany match well to yours in the UK. I know two mates who once had passed their models to a company and got a bag of rotten fittings back.

[tigertiger]

There had been on the German Navy some experiments as well with various types of camouflage, some had been tried even with the S-boats (or E-boats). It was found, that a real camouflage of a sarp-edged object on a flat ground like the sea, with an equal background like the horizon- is not possible. Though, any camouflage could just lead to a scheme to confuse the rangefinder, or hide a boat at very special circumstances (like in the foresaid Mountbatten-Pink).
The trouble is (as stated before) that: A modelship, camouflaged in which way ever should have been filmed or photographed on a distance of the (minimum) foresaid 100 meters, which will give scale 1:100 a distance of 10000 Meters or approx. 6 miles. 6 Miles was avery colse range, even in WW1. Then we don`t have to forget the weather-circumstances. For the focus, 100 Meters on a model does not give the same humidity or mist like it is scale 1:1 at about 10000 Meters on the origin. Though- if you want to bring up evidence by filming a modelboat about camouflage, and adopt it to the origin you`ll never have the same effect. The evidence for the effectivity of any camouflage (dazzled or not) by filming a model will be...... Nill!

My two-pennys,

Jörg

P.S.: The experience by media-companies in Germany match well to yours in the UK. I know two mates who once had passed their models to a company and got a bag of rotten fittings back.

Hi Jorg

If I were to do the aforementioned, I would do it at low light, and not with too big a zoom lens, at water level (i.e. 2-3 cm), prefereable on a not very clear morning. It would not make the boat dissapear as we have both said. but it would make it hard to judge the direction it was heading.
And as we have also said 10 km is very close at sea, the 100m could easily be increased.