Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Steam engine efficiency?  (Read 8677 times)

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23,967
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Steam engine efficiency?
« on: November 28, 2010, 03:57:54 pm »


How is steam engine efficiency measured?

I'm guessing that the Tripple Expansion steam engine is the most efficient but is that most efficient use of stream, fuel, revolutions per ton of fuel, HP per ton of fuel, or something else?

Also, does the efficiency of a steam engine stay roughly the same over the entire speed range or is it most efficient at certain revs like a car, eg. 56mph?

Does boiler type also have an effect?

( Yes, its Sunday afternoon and I'm watching More Industrial Revelations on Freeview!  Martin  )
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!" -  Visit the Mayhem FaceBook Groups!  &  Giant Models

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12,482
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2010, 04:34:55 pm »

During the 19th century, steam engine efficiency in a ship was effectively measured by how much coal you had to shovel in at the hot end to get a an hour's or day's steaming out of the ship at her service speed.

Colin
Logged

HS93 (RIP)

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,922
  • I cannot spell , tough
  • Location: Rainhill UK
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2010, 05:02:08 pm »

I think they give the coal on them a calorific value the same can be done with gas  so amount of energy V distance /speed traveled or something like that I am shore some one will correct me

Peter
Logged

gondolier88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,347
  • www.coniston-regatta.co.uk
  • Location: Crake Valley, Cumbria
    • Coniston Regatta
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2010, 06:17:41 pm »

Hi Martin,

As Colin B says, efficiency of marine steam engines was measured in how much coal was burnt- but this was equally affected by the efficiency the boiler too.
To answer your question directly;
The efficiency of a steam engine was measured using a 'steam indicator card'- a few members on here will have used one in anger I'm sure. The device measured the pressures in the cylinder (steam works expansively, so) the pressure should not stay constant through the revolution, it should drop on a slow curve, drop off to nothing as the exhaust opens then rise rapidly, just a tad before TDC or TDC as this acts as a cushion and stops the piston hitting the cylinder covers before it starts its power stroke.
A chord was attached to the crosshead and also showed on the card the relevant position of the piston for any given pressure.
An efficient engine was the pride of any chief engineer, who was always the person who oversaw the setting of the valve lap and lead (the amount of steam admitted before power stroke, and the amount of steam admitted during the stroke before exhaust)
This job became harder the more cylinders you had, and yes, as you say Triples were very efficient, but Quadruple Expansion engines were very common in smaller marine plants too, owing to the fact that on big marine plants the last cylinder would have been too large to manufacture- though some large 5 cylinder quadruple expansion engines were manufactured which split the last expansion of the steam between two cylinders that shared the volume of the steam equally- though you sacrificed weight and length to do so.
The next, if not as important point was thermal efficiency of the pipework and cylinders- early steam engines had solid cast cylinders, as most [all] of the models on here do. However around the 1880’s experiments were made to cast the cylinder walls hollow and supply steam to this ‘jacket’, which became known as the ‘steam jacket’, and was then used in every steam engine design right upto the last days of steam. This ‘jacket’ counteracted the thermal inefficiencies inherent in an external combustion engine- ie. The constant pressure, and therefore temperature, differentials as the cylinder went through it’s expansive working. It also massively reduced condensation in the cylinders and valve chests- condensation is (not to be patronising) condensed steam- in other words a little like taking all the ‘Octane’ out of your preferred IC fuel- still the same stuff, but would be useless and would just serve to stop the engine working properly.
All marine steam plants also utilised a means of changing the valve movements while the engine is moving- the ‘valve gear’.
Predominantly ‘Stephenson’s link’, although ‘Hackworth’, ‘Marshall’ and ‘Bremme’ were all experimented with.

These allow the steam to work all the way from ‘full steam ahead’ to ‘full steam astern’.
The term ‘full steam’ meaning that the cylinder was working with minimal expansion- giving lot’s of power, lots of rev’s and quick responsiveness- just what the Helm needs when manouvering.
Everything in-between just improved efficiency as the steam in a hot engine could be taken to admitting just the slightest ‘whiff’ of the stuff, which sacrificed all the things the Helm needed when in close confines, but at sea or in the middle of a lake, but gave huge fuel savings. This was as long as the valve chest was provided with full pressure steam. This process was termed ‘linking up’ or ‘linking down’, a term from the use of Stephenson’s link when you could physically see the link taking a smaller arc as less steam was admitted- as you can on the models that use this gear too.
That’s efficiency in a nutshell, though there are other factors- dry steam, superheat, piston valves or slide valves, well packed glands, no leaks etc etc.
Greg
Logged
Don't get heated...get steamed up!

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12,482
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2010, 06:57:39 pm »

That's very interesting Greg, I knew some of it but you have explained it very well.

Colin
Logged

gondolier88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,347
  • www.coniston-regatta.co.uk
  • Location: Crake Valley, Cumbria
    • Coniston Regatta
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2010, 07:14:11 pm »

Hi Martin,

As Colin B says, efficiency of marine steam engines was measured in how much coal was burnt- but this was equally affected by the efficiency the boiler too.
To answer your question directly;
The efficiency of a steam engine was measured using a 'steam indicator card'- a few members on here will have used one in anger I'm sure. The device measured the pressures in the cylinder (steam works expansively, so) the pressure should not stay constant through the revolution, it should drop on a slow curve, drop off to nothing as the exhaust opens then rise rapidly, just a tad before TDC or BDC as this acts as a cushion and stops the piston hitting the cylinder covers before it starts its power stroke.
A chord was attached to the crosshead and also showed on the card the relevant position of the piston for any given pressure.
An efficient engine was the pride of any chief engineer, who was always the person who oversaw the setting of the valve lap and lead (the amount of steam admitted before power stroke, and the amount of steam admitted during the stroke before exhaust)
This job became harder the more cylinders you had, and yes, as you say Triples were very efficient, but Quadruple Expansion engines were very common in smaller marine plants too, owing to the fact that on big marine plants the last cylinder would have been too large to manufacture- though some large 5 cylinder quadruple expansion engines were manufactured which split the last expansion of the steam between two cylinders that shared the volume of the steam equally- though you sacrificed weight and length to do so.
The next, if not as important point was thermal efficiency of the pipework and cylinders- early steam engines had solid cast cylinders, as most [all] of the models on here do. However around the 1880’s experiments were made to cast the cylinder walls hollow and supply steam to this ‘jacket’, which became known as the ‘steam jacket’, and was then used in every steam engine design right upto the last days of steam. This ‘jacket’ counteracted the thermal inefficiencies inherent in an external combustion engine- ie. The constant pressure, and therefore temperature, differentials as the cylinder went through it’s expansive working. It also massively reduced condensation in the cylinders and valve chests- condensation is (not to be patronising) condensed steam- in other words a little like taking all the ‘Octane’ out of your preferred IC fuel- still the same stuff, but would be useless and would just serve to stop the engine working properly.
All marine steam plants also utilised a means of changing the valve movements while the engine is moving- the ‘valve gear’.
Predominantly ‘Stephenson’s link’, although ‘Hackworth’, ‘Marshall’ and ‘Bremme’ were all experimented with.

These allow the steam to work all the way from ‘full steam ahead’ to ‘full steam astern’.
The term ‘full steam’ meaning that the cylinder was working with minimal expansion- giving lot’s of power, lots of rev’s and quick responsiveness- just what the Helm needs when manouvering.
Everything in-between just improved efficiency as the steam in a hot engine could be taken to admitting just the slightest ‘whiff’ of the stuff, which sacrificed all the things the Helm needed when in close confines, but at sea or in the middle of a lake, gave huge fuel savings. This was as long as the valve chest was provided with full pressure steam. This process was termed ‘linking up’ or ‘linking down’, a term from the use of Stephenson’s link when you could physically see the link taking a smaller arc as less steam was admitted- as you can on the models that use this gear too.
That’s efficiency in a nutshell, though there are other factors- dry steam, superheat, piston valves or slide valves, well packed glands, no leaks etc etc.
Greg


Good, as long as you understand what I write I'm happy- just a couple of corrections (in red)- I can't afford a proof reader!!!
Logged
Don't get heated...get steamed up!

dave301bounty

  • Guest
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2010, 07:37:26 pm »

That answer takes me back ,I was looking at a steam indicator kit last week ,and today was looking at a whole load of steam stuff ,all beingsold of ,the prices were very high but to see what you had written ,just takes me back ,,Lykes Line BOT office in Liverpool ,2nd part A Steam .   all happy days .Taking cards ,,was a job I hated ,could never please the Cheif  .
Logged

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2010, 08:18:24 pm »

Hi Martin,

One of the factors in any steam engine efficiency was the amount of vacuum that could be "pulled" by the condenser - the higher the vacuum the lower the temperature that steam could exist before condensing (perhaps down to about 46degC on a good day). Factors giving a good vacuum would be the cooling water temperature from the sea or lake, amount of oil contamination on the cooling surfaces, air leakage into the condenser and efficiency of the air scavaging pumps.

Every Friday, at the power station where I did my apprenticeship, we had to measure the turbine condenser efficiency by using calibrated mercury-in-glass thermometers (it was a long time ago!) placed into the condenser temperature pockets, and such things as air pump flow, steam flow, MWh etc were noted.   On occasions, if the turbine was off-load, we were sent into the condenser to "pick" the condenser tube of debris (some of which I would not like to describe, since we obtained our water from the local canal!). Even now, I gag at the memory of the smell, which was like breathing cod-liver oil.

All this information was given to the efficiency clerk, who, with his "state-of-the-art" electro-mechanical calculator, would do the necessary sums and produce the weekly efficiency data. You would need to know not only the fuel tonnage used, but also the fuel calorific value which was measured in the station lab' using a "bomb" calorimeter (it looked like a large cast iron bomb). A sample of the coal would be placed in the calorimeter and fed with pure oxygen, an electrical heating element would ignite the fuel and then we would measure the rise in temperature using a very accurate mercury-glass thermometer, which even had its own rubber hammer (no joke) to ensure the mercury didn't stick.

Our efficiency clerk, used to keep a little red book and, if the efficiency was particularly bad one week, keep a log of "imaginary" tons of coal that would be "put back" on the coal yard to make out that we had used less coal than we really had. Well, he came a cropper when, during a miners strike, we completely scraped the coal yard clean and the manager wanted to know where 300 tons of coal had disappeared - which was, of course, the clerk's so called "imaginary" coal!

Of course, in the modern power plant practically all the data (apart from the calorific value) is available automatically (no grumbling apprentices) and the operator can continuously refer to the machine's efficiency (AND SO CAN HIS MANAGER!) and I, unofficially , plumbed it into my home computer so I could see the state of play before leaving for work in the morning.

Ian
Logged

gondolier88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,347
  • www.coniston-regatta.co.uk
  • Location: Crake Valley, Cumbria
    • Coniston Regatta
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2010, 08:28:04 pm »

Hi Dave,

I know what you mean about the prices- I'm looking at trying to get one for the Steamboat Museum, but they are excorbitant- especially as they will all (!) be going to collectors.

Which did you use- I was looking to get one of Dobbies'?

Robin Wallace-Simms, a senior SBA member, made an electronic indicator, I'm not sure what happened to it. Though I imagine Flashtwo or TAG could knock one up in their sleep :-))

Greg
Logged
Don't get heated...get steamed up!

dave301bounty

  • Guest
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2010, 08:32:33 pm »

Amazing ,,there are a lot of very clever blokes on this site ,Steam ,It taught me a lot ,And the Lloyds surveyor with his box , Big Lancashire boilers ,three of em ,and semi auto fired ,main boiler house Liverpool ,Oxford st . one pond of coal / one pound of steam ...
Logged

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2010, 08:49:30 pm »

Hi Martin,

I forgot to say that for a more scientific explanation look up the Carnot cycle on Wikipedia for an explanation on the theoretical thermal efficiency limits of any heat engine and for steam engines look up the Rankin cycle.

To sum up for these two cycles is that, for the highest thermal efficiency, the steam must enter the engine at the highest practical temperature and leave at the lowest practical temperature, hence the reason for superheat and good condenser performance.

The equation (sorry) for efficiency becomes  n= 1 - steam temperature leaving engine / steam temperature entering engine.

Regarding if there is a particular efficient working point. The biggest cause for low efficiency is losses during start-up where the heat goes into warming all that cast iron and pipework. If the running regime is continously on and off load then the efficiency will be low, if the engine is allowed to get to working temperature and stay there, then the efficiency will be the optimum.

Once the engine is up to working temperature, then there will be constant heat losses independant of how hard the engine is working, therefore, if the engine is allowed to work at maximum output then, as a proportion, the heat losses will be minimised.


Ian
Logged

gondolier88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,347
  • www.coniston-regatta.co.uk
  • Location: Crake Valley, Cumbria
    • Coniston Regatta
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2010, 09:46:24 pm »

one pond of coal / one pound of steam ...

Now THAT is hard work!
Logged
Don't get heated...get steamed up!

boatmadman

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,703
  • Location: South Cumbria
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2010, 05:35:32 pm »

Good description, Ian. Out of interest, we still use a mercury vacuum gauge as the reference for measuring the condenser performance at the power station I work in.

Everything else is of course, computer controlled, 2 men per shift to run the station etc.

One thing I would add, you can actually reduce plant efficiency by undercooling condensate in the condenser, thus requiring more heat to bring it back to steam. Too much too cold cooling water is the cause of this.

We get calorific value fed into the control system as live data, so we can see the efficiency of the plant as it runs, and the effect of changes in CV, which happens fairly often on gas firing, depending on where the gas is coming from, North sea, Morecambe bay etc.

t'other Ian
Logged
if at first you dont succeed.....have a beer.....

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2010, 06:31:09 pm »

Hi Greg,

When you use an Indicator on a  reciprocating engine, where do you have the pressure tapping point and, if its double acting, do you need two tapping points and have to do two separate plots?

Another question - is it important at what revs the engine is doing?

Ian.
Logged

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23,967
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2010, 06:33:50 pm »


Amazing ,,there are a lot of very clever blokes on this site ,Steam ,It taught me a lot ...

Yes some VERY clever people on here, thanks for your considerable time Greg and Ian, typing out those post for us, most informative.

 Am I right in assuming that you if you got about 25% efficiency from your marine engine, you would be a very popular engineer with
  the shipping line?

Also, if the maximum efficiency of "my engine" was achieved at 200 RPM, ( I know this is a how long is a piece of string question but) if I run the engine at 100 RPM, how much does that effect "Steam use" efficiency? I ask because I always thought you use the same volume of steam to move the piston full stroke, no matter how fast it was moving?... as does this relate to what you were saying about using "Full Steam"? ( Maybe I'm using the wrong word, 'efficiency' when relating to amount of steam used per stroke.)

 
This was also worth a look for us steam ignoramus'!:
http://www.norwayheritage.com/articles/templates/ships.asp?articleid=87&zoneid=5
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!" -  Visit the Mayhem FaceBook Groups!  &  Giant Models

dreadnought72

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,892
  • Wood butcher with ten thumbs
  • Location: Airdrie, Scotland
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2010, 06:40:12 pm »

Am I right in assuming that you if you got about 25% efficiency from your marine engine, you would be a very popular engineer with
  the shipping line?

I would suspect that's a bit high when looking at practical model plants.

And compare that to the ~95% efficiency you get in electrical energy to motor rotation in electric motors.

Andy
Logged
Enjoying every minute sailing W9465 Mertensia

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23,967
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2010, 06:50:53 pm »

"I would suspect that's a bit high when looking at practical model plants. "

When I said "my engine", I was obviously referring to my Harland Wolff  triple expansion compound engines in my
  1,000 passenger liner I keep birthed in the back yard!  %)
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!" -  Visit the Mayhem FaceBook Groups!  &  Giant Models

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2010, 07:28:25 pm »

Hi Martin,

Greg will perhaps correct me on the detail, but...


Two properties of steam drive the piston:

1) the mechanical force which is the steam pressure x piston area. This would be no different than running on compressed air at ambient temperature.

2) the heat energy contained within the steam, which can only be used mechanically if the steam is allowed to expand.

If the steam enters the cylinder for the full stroke, without being cut-off, then the pressure in the cylinder remains constant and full use is made of the steam pressure and  the engine can run at maximum torque – good for starting.

If the steam is cut-off at some point before the complete stroke, then the steam is allowed to expand and the heat energy is utilised in powering the piston.

This conversion of heat energy reduces the torque available (i.e. less pressure)  for the rest of the stroke, but, and this is your question, reduces the amount of steam required and hence improves the efficiency.

This understanding that a steam engine was a heat engine and not a compressed gas engine, came about in the mid-19th century, when somebody measured how much heat was going in as steam, compared with the heat in the condensed steam coming out. Some of the heat energy was found to have been converted into mechanical energy.

Regarding efficiency of real plant, I’ve seen it as low as 9% during a bad week and upto 23% on a good week. On the best conventional steam plant, I’ve seen it touch 40%. For a model steam engine, I would expect 1% is the norm.

Ian.
Logged

gondolier88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,347
  • www.coniston-regatta.co.uk
  • Location: Crake Valley, Cumbria
    • Coniston Regatta
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2010, 08:19:43 pm »

Hi Greg,

When you use an Indicator on a reciprocating engine, where do you have the pressure tapping point and, if its double acting, do you need two tapping points and have to do two separate plots?

Another question - is it important at what revs the engine is doing?

Ian.

The pressure points are almost always the drain cock outlets- warming up the engine first of course- and yes, on a double acting engine both the top and bottom drains are used. This does indeed give you two plots- this was very important as in the very large engines the gravitational force on the downstroke of a piston was huge, so a larger lead was used to cushion the downstroke than the upstroke.


Regarding the rev's- I have to admit I don't know, I've never asked the old engineer that I consort with that question, I must ask him and let you know. I would suggest that normal cruising rev's at normal cruising cut-off would be the conditions, but as I said, i'm not entirely sure.

Marine efficiency in the latter stages of the days of steam was relatively high, 25% was held as a goal for most enginerooms to maintain, though 30% was attainable under very careful firing in the very latter steam plants with the full economiser, high pressure watertube boilers, modulating oil burners, condensers, forced draft and superheat treatment.

Also, if the maximum efficiency of "my engine" was achieved at 200 RPM, ( I know this is a how long is a piece of string question but) if I run the engine at 100 RPM, how much does that effect "Steam use" efficiency? I ask because I always thought you use the same volume of steam to move the piston full stroke, no matter how fast it was moving?... as does this relate to what you were saying about using "Full Steam"? ( Maybe I'm using the wrong word, 'efficiency' when relating to amount of steam used per stroke.)


You are spot on- the amount of steam used to give the output of the engine is the engine’s efficiency. The specific heat in the steam is what makes it work expansively- so an engine on full pressure in the valve chest, but throttled back on the valve cut-off, as well as being supplied with at least dry, preferably superheated steam, gave very reasonable steam consumption.

When you look at a steam table (preferably before bed as it’s not fascinating reading!) it’s interesting just how much energy steam hold as the temperature goes up- even if it is still ‘low’ pressures (200-400psi range)

Just realised that Ian has just posted the same reply so I won’t say anymore {-)

Greg
Logged
Don't get heated...get steamed up!

TAG

  • Guest
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2010, 05:16:00 pm »

Hi Greg
It is possible to make an electronic steam engine indicator by using an oscilloscope. A pressure transducer is connected to the engine cylinder to measure cylinder steam pressure and electrically connected to the y axis of the scope. A travel transducer connected to the con rod (or crankshaft) to indicate the piston position and electrically connected to the x axis of the scope. As the engine ran the spot on the screen would plot out the diagram. Using the memory in the scope one could save the plot. This system is not anything new but has been used in the past for continuous and/or remote indication - no I am not going to build one but I have a little project to build a dynamometer to test the output of model steam engines. I have always been curious as to know what the output of our size engines is.
The steam engine would be loaded by a small permanent magnet generator (electric motor) and the displacement of the generator stator about rotor used to measure torque and measuring the shaft speed the output could be calculated, I am not sure in what units, milli-bhp or milli-watts!
Tim
Logged

gondolier88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,347
  • www.coniston-regatta.co.uk
  • Location: Crake Valley, Cumbria
    • Coniston Regatta
Re: Steam engine efficiency?
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2010, 08:57:57 pm »

Hi Tim,

I imagine that is just like the one the SBA used to use, an elegant way of getting very accurate results, I really like the idea. The 'problem' with working on historic steam is that you don't get to see how it's applications, bound by the same laws and principles, were brought through the 20th century to the top Nuke Sub's and power stations we have today.

What is fascinating is that something so elemental is still the medium of preference for high efficiency-high output prime movers.

I'm sure i'm not the only one looking forward to seeing your model dynamometer- though I think it's just an excuse reason to buy every model steam engine out there to 'test'. :-))

Won't tell the Mrs...

What will be the largest power output you think you will be able to record on your dyno'?

Greg
Logged
Don't get heated...get steamed up!
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.226 seconds with 21 queries.