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[Bowwave]

John  perhaps with the   growing emergence of the depository at Chatham your fine models will eventually fined a  suitable  home so  they may be  open to view by the general public .I do know that your  HMS  Hermes carrier once exhibited in prime spot at the NMM is also at Chatham and is available to view. So all is not lost.
Bowwave

[John R Haynes]

Thats good to hear , thanks . Fortunately most of my models are in the States , particularly in Pearl Harbour . Its interesting to note the difference that the Americans have to their  Forces  where each State has its battlewagons , subs etc and are proud of their forces compared to us where we discard our ships so readliy after any conflict and recently before they are  even built and we also do not take much care of our forces.
 Anybody know what happened to the Sloop Whimbrel , supposedly being liberated from Egypt ?

[Bowwave]

John as far as I am aware the intention was to bring Wimbrol to Liverpool but the ship still remains in Egypt. We certainly have the impression the US  is far more respectful of their naval heritage than we are , unfortunately  that is not the case for the old USS Olympia .Although  there has been  major fund raising efforts to conserve the cruiser  the future looks bleak . Think of it in terms of HMS Belfast and the impact of the predicament is brought home .
Bowwave

[bobk]

Sadly, as said previously, it is all about numbers.  If the Maritime Gallery is claimed to have a low number of visitors perhaps we should not be too surprised.  The Science Museum is one of London's top visitor attractions.  2,793,000 in 2009.

Against this how many of us dedicated modellers and historic ship enthusiast are there out there?
Guess:  Suppose that one in ten serious ship modellers join a club, and maybe there are only 50 such clubs around Britain of about 50 members each, so how often do each of us visit such museums a year?  Perhaps the Science Museum is not wrong, as much as I hate to admit it.  The Maths don't look good.

If you really want to see a wonderful collection of model ships our best bet could be the Model Boat Show in Warwick, 11-13 November.
That's about as close as we are likely to get nowadays.

Bob

[victorian]

Bowave said: "These artifacts whilst enormously valuable as a point of reference are not truly representative of the vessel they portray and for good reason as there existence was to impress or for scientific analysis  not to serve as a replica of the original vessel."

I've seen this said on a number of occasions and would like to point out for the interest of other modellers that it does not really apply in the case of late 19th century warships. Any discrepancies between builders models and photographs of the real ships tend to be superficial, as in the design of decorative mouldings on Japanese warships. In terms of the accuracy and realism of the ship models I have found them to be more reliable than the supposed 'official' Admiralty plans. The model of 'Diadem' referred to earlier is a case in point, displaying features that are discernable in photographs but not apparent in the Admiralty plans. These late Victorian warship models represent the real ships as recorded in photographs with huge fidelity and in my (admittedly limited) experience represent the actual ships more accurately than any other source.

As an example I offer the model of the cruiser "Good Hope" tucked away in a packing crate at Duxford. This might be one of those restored by John and we can only hope that it will re-appear at Chatham. These ship models are almost all that is left of our great Victorian Navy and they deserve to be cherished, and be made available to all those who marvel at them.

[Bowwave]

Whilst I agree that the representation on many model ships crafted during the Victorian era where better in some respects to the drawings is not surprising. Often the drawings produced were detailed only to a point where much of the working deck detail was in “outline" other drawings could be quite the opposite.   Where builder’s models of the period are concerned some can be considered superb representations but there is no such thing as accurate model only degrees of interpretation. Having spent best part of my life with full size ships and models   the connections are very superficial. For example  at the Barrow Dock museum there is a number of excellent examples of  warship models from the late  Victorian period and superficially  they leave a lasting impression on any  person taking time to examine the detail . I agree  many of the mechanical features , davits , winches , anchor handling ,  even semaphore signaling , search light mountings are little gems in their own right  and valuable as a point of reference  but many aspects of  detail on such models  should be treated  with and a level of deferential skepticism .  Simply because they were not built as replicas that was  not there function or purpose. Many Victorian models where indeed extremely basic and the function was to examine aspect of structure and design.  When I view models from any period but particularly those of the late Victorian period I stand in awe at the skill of the craftsmen that made such striking models. On the other hand  because a model looks impressive it does not indicate that it reflects the original vessel and I feel we need a healthy objectiveness with regard to how we use the information that can be gleaned from any examination of these magnificent period pieces. 
Bowwave

[Patternmaker]

As I have a model of a Shearwater 111 Catamaran I built in 1957.  I contacted the Science Museum to find out
the outcome, this was their reply;


Thank you for your email dated 14th September 2011 with regards to the possibility that the Science Museum holds within its collections a model of the Shearwater 111 catamaran. I have conducted several reviews of the Museum’s inventory. I have been able to locate the following object:

Rigged model of a double-hull catamaran, "Shearwater III" (register No.S 111 ). (Inventory number 1958-242)

This object is currently on display within the Science Museum’s Shipping Gallery; should you wish to view it please visit the Museum during normal opening hours – 10am to 6pm, last entry 5.15pm, Monday to Sunday, except 24th to 26th December. At present there are plans to remove the Shipping Gallery. The Gallery will be closed to the public in c.May 2012. The new exhibition space is scheduled to open sometime in 2014.

A final decision on where objects currently displayed in the Shipping Gallery will be stored has yet to be made. It is most likely objects will be placed in secure Museum storage (they will be accessible to the public upon request), rotated into another relevant Museum Gallery or loaned to another institution for public display. I trust this information easies some of the concerns you may have. Should you have any further questions relating to the above object and its future storage/display status then please feel free to contact me again closer to the planned gallery closure date.

It should be noted that at anyone time approximately 93 to 95 per cent of the Museum’s objects are held within secure Museum storage. These objects are accessible for viewing upon request and the Museum makes every effort to rotate objects into permanent or temporary exhibits.

Rory Cook
Corporate Information and Enquiries Officer
Science Museum

 

[gondolier88]

The real problem facing these models, as with most of the wonderful objects interned behind the scenes in our national museums; the museums are given so many objects, many small and seemingly uninteresting, some large and or dangerous and thus undisplayable. This puts them in the predicament mentioned by the curator above that they have to choose carefully what is relevant and interesting, easy to interpret by the general public and tie in with the museum's overall theme.

The ship models are a case in point; the curator would like to display these models, however, as Colin has said they simply don't attract the majority of the public's imagination. This now means they must go into storage to allow the museum to display things which do attract the public- this is how museums survive after all! Imagine how upsetting it would be if the LSM closed and no-one wanted to take responsibility for the models...

As for the fear that the models may fall foul of that most Briitish of institutions, namely beaurocracy; let me assure you that once an object, any object enters a museum it is the most difficult thing you could imagine to remove it- rember that most are given to the museum with a caveat 'this was my father's.grandfather's mother's/grandmother's flim flam jibbety wacket and it simply MUST be looked after for the benefit of the education of future generations!', this is all documented upon entering the object into the museum's itinerary and provides huge amounts of information for anyone thinking 'why is that in the museum...!', as well as the all important provenance of each object- it's reason for being kept and taking up valuable space.

The way many large museums are trying to go, led by the NRM in many ways; is to display the stores as part of the museum, in humidicly controlled storage buildings that are safe and accessable to the general public. Perhaps in the future the LSM may try to go this route too.

Interesting that the Barrow Dock museum be mentioned for their displaying the wonderful Vicker's models there- if you take a trip to Furness General Hospital, you will find a collection of large scale ship models of a calibre that would make museums drool with envy and they are on display to a captive audience (well, until your cured/healed/annoyed and leave...) seen by hundreds of people every year.

Greg

[Edward Pinniger]

Very sad news, but I'm not really surprised as there have been rumours about this gallery's closure for several years 

As other forum members have said, the value of these models isn't simply that they are large, impressive, detailed ship models (which you can see at a model show) but as historical artifacts and as three-dimensional representations of what the real vessels looked like (even if not 100% accurate in some cases), often built at the same time and by the same companies that built the real thing - they're probably the next best thing to preserving the latter, 99.9% of which have gone to the breakers long ago. In the Science Museum gallery you can see the evolution of the merchant steamship and passenger liner, all the way from the "Savannah" of 1819 to the 1930s "Queen Elizabeth" and including models of all 3 Brunel-designed steamships, all to a constant scale of 1/48.

A maritime equivalent of the National Railway Museum's open stores (as mentioned by gondolier88) seems like the best idea - ship models don't have enough general interest for museums to display a large and comprehensive gallery of them, but it would be a great shame, to say the least, for them all to end up packed away in storage cases for the indefinite future.

I have loads of high-res digital photos of the models in the gallery (especially the merchant/liner steamships, but quite a few of the warships, sailing ships and smaller vessels too) which I took a couple of years ago (the last time I'd heard the gallery was going to be closed) and was intending to put on Photobucket or similar. I never got round to it but the closure of the gallery should give me a reason to finally get round to it! I plan to make at least one final visit there to photograph any models I haven't already done.

[Dan.Lord]

Yes a real shame they are going to close these galleries. Here's a few pics I took last time I was there.

[Bowwave]

Really excellent pictures .and a sobering reminder of what the viewing public will be missing when they are withdrawn  from display . Lighting   as I remember and  confirmed in these pictures is better than most any other display of ship models that I've come across over the years.
Bowwave

[Colin Bishop]

I visited the Museum yesterday and had an interesting discussion with the Curator of Transport who effectively confirmed what has been said above. It is however still open to discussion to what extent some of the models and other exhibits might be brought back as part of a smaller display, perhaps on a rotating basis. The Curator himself is very keen that at least some models should contiinue to be displayed but no guarantees can be given on this at the moment.

I did have the opportunity to take plenty of photos while I was there which I hope will form the basis of an article in Model Boats sometime during the next few months. As well as overall shots of the models themselves I also took lots of photos of details such as winches and windlasses etc. for future reference as it is just these mundane items that are othrwise difficult to get accurate information on when you are constructing a model, as has already been pointed out.

Colin

[Bowwave]

Colin glad to hear that you had a chance to put forward  a point of view that is sheared by many people and not just those that are interested either in ship models or maritime  sciences.  Thank you for taking time to bring  these thoughts and reservations in person,   regarding the future of this world renowned collection  to the museum .
I firmly believe that it is  right to express these thoughts directly , it may not  alter the general direction  that the   Museum  is taking  but it may just give them reason  to pause and reflect .
Bowwave

[brianB6]

Thank you for the picture of H.M.S. Vanguard.
It brings back memories of very enjoyable times in the Science Museum.
It would be such a shame if future generations could not see their maritime heritage and be amazed at the work that went into these models.