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[Bendragon1337]

Hello there, I'm ben.

Even though that the main title says "I need help with designing a fictional model RC boat from scratch.", My main interest, however is trains.

However, even when that's true, there is a crossover between trains and ships, which is at the sea port, and that's what I would like to replicate.

The train's scale is 1:87 (HO), or 1:76.2 (OO), so it can be anywhere within those two margins. (these will not be important in a fictional ship, but they do come into play when designing the doors and windows).

Unfortunately, While I was looking around, to see if there were any ships and boats, but mainly, they were static, that sat on fictional water (as in, they only modelled the upper hull, that would be above the water line, missing out the entire bottom of the ship). The closest one that I could find was 1:92.

I was thinking of having an operating RC ship that I could use to sail on the lake, rather then just some ornament. One thing is realism with model trains, another is the ability to play around with an operating harbour, a harbour which can operate.

My main goal, is to eventually have a garden railway, with an operating harbour.

Unfortunately, I have little to no knowledge about this field as a whole, so it will require me to research a lot.

So, now that I have got the background in there, now to do with the actual boat its self.

The boat in question, will be a general cargo ship, the reason I choose this type of ship, is due to the cranes on the top, it is not common on container ships to have cranes, but since there are no ship-shore container cranes for sale off the shelf (there are a few cranes, for example: the heljan container crane http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tzsblR16Zg and the lima container crane http://www.newmodellersshop.co.uk/images/lima/hl8000-lima-container-crane.jpg).

The boat will be about a meter long.

As I have no knowledge on the subject, I need advice on what to look out for when designing a ship? I can find a lot of information on how to build a ship (materials, adhesives and general construction, fittings can be revised), but I don't have any information on how to design a ship from scratch.

I have some things in mind: the "motor room" will be below the bridge, due to the fact that it's the easiest place to put it. Since the hold will be used as a hold.

The electronics will be placed in the bridge, above the water line (even though the motor would be an expensive piece of equipment, the mechanical aspect of it prevents it from being above the waterline, the electronics can be linked to the motor anywhere within the ship, so I choose it to be above the water line).

The aerial for the RC remote, will be placed on top of the bridge.

The boat its self, will be built out of balsa wood, with an adhesive (I'm sure I can find out which adhesive by searching around).

The ship will not be based off a real ship, but the cranes have to operate (to be able to unload loads from the hold, as there wouldn't be any cranes on the quay to unload its cargo).

Isometric drawings can be provided at your convenience (this will be drawn directly from my imagination, and thus, it can be improved greatly on).

Thank you for reading, and I hope that you can help me.

[boatmadman]

Hi Ben,

Welcome aboard,sounds like an interesting project you are embarking on.

Have a look here: http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19208.0

This will guide you through the initial steps of using Delftship and so design your own boat in 3D

Ian

[malcolmfrary]

The big thing with a freelance is to make sure that, basically, everything looks like it should work.  By that I mean that the crew should be able to work it and get about, and preferably not need midgets at one end but giants at the other.
Have a look here
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757017&highlight=nord+icelandia
Not quite what you are looking for, being a different type of vessel, and not a ground-up design, but it covers most of the problems you will run into.
The size sounds like a 250-ish foot coaster of maybe 2500 tons, like this one I spotted on a recent holiday.

[Ted_H]

Take a look on some of the ship related sites such as ShipSpotting.com where you can view hundreds of photos giving possible ideas of the type of ship you would want to build.(google something like "ship photos" to find others)

When you have found something you like its quite possible someone would have a plan or even a ready made hull which you could adapt to your needs. Come back here and just ask I'm sure someone will help.

I dont think you would find many fittings to suit the model railway scales of 00 and HO, your nearest would be 1/96 which wouldnt look too out of place in a garden railway.

Ted 

[Bendragon1337]

Thanks for the information. I really appreciate it.

[Norseman]

Hi Ben

As you like trains Antony's build might interest you a little
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=33642.0

Dave

[Ted_H]

I forgot to mention for you to have a look at Deans Marine web site ; the Mouldeans section. He may have a suitable hull you could adapt, possibly his liberty ship?

[Mad_Mike]

what kind of money do you want to be spending?

[irishcarguy]

Thanks Dave it is nice to see the train ferry build again, Bendwagon you are taking on a mighty task & I wish you well, I am sure we will all be watching & giving you our 2 bits worth & any help you may need, there are a great collection of bright sparks on this forum (not me), Mick B.

[Norseman]

Hi Mick

I like the rail /sea interfaces ......... especiallly older ones.

Hi Ben
I really hope you post pictures of your garden as the work progresses. Sounds like a big undertaking

Have you a date in mind and maybe a general location? I ask because that affects what vesel will match up. Mayhemers might be more specific in suggestions; Especially with the hulls already available - you can save a lot of time by using one.

Dave

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

One of the kits Walther used to produce and somtimes re-releases is the Car float, and the loading apron.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3152
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3068

If you incorporate the Loading Apron into your layout, you can build a recessed area for your model ship to
sit in your train layout and can then perform loading operations with your trains.

As for the ship, I would look at the RORO ferries as design precedents.
The SS Badger was one such ship on the Great Lakes, USA/Canada.
http://www.strangebusiness.com/content/item/154566.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stormdog42/4906410636/

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1206240

 

Umi

[Bendragon1337]

Okay, I took a visit to the forums again, and I see many more helpful posters.

So I guess that I have to do a progress update for you. (Foretasted to be slower progress in the future, as I feel that I need the tools for the project.)

Last time I left you, you linked me to a simulation program... Now that was a bit of a learning curve (followed the tutorial, until I felt satisfied with what I've learnt, then I begun reading up about it in the manual, both helped), and I was getting very frustrated with it (didn't quite do what I want). That is until it was towards the end of the project. I don't think the actual designing went too bad. But I'm sure that you could give me tips on how to improve it (the stern had to be shaped so that the motor was right below the bridge, yet the stern had the shape that it does).

the hull's size is 1 metre by 17 centimetres high, and the beam is 14 centimetres, The reason for the bulb on the stern is representing the propeller shaft, this might be remedied, if I so desire. (this, in my opinion, could be seen as a problem, but I don't truly know, any more information about the hull, just ask).

The picture of the hull is in the attachment.

Now that I got the hull design correct, and developed my idea (due to the circumstances). Lets move onto other pieces that I've been looking at.

Here's a series of links of the parts that I've been researching on random sites that I thought that I would like on my ship (the cost is like... ouch, wouldn't be surprised that it would go above £100).

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RUDDER-XL-EXTRA-LARGE-rc-model-boat-x-brass-complete-/150525712983?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item230c081a57#ht_1074wt_1110 the rudder is always a necessary in a vehicle that's on water. As are propellers

60mm
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RC-SCALE-MODEL-BOAT-BRASS-PROPELLER-4-BLADE-60MM-RH-M4-/190383929978?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item2c53c43a7a#ht_844wt_1110

55mm
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Model-Boat-Ship-Fittings-55mm-Brass-Propeller-/380426039392?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item589328b060#ht_525wt_1344
I haven't decided to take the 60mm propeller or the 55mm, since I can have 2 propellers and rudders with the 55mm, but I can take up more of the rudder with the 60mm.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LEOPARD-Boat-2860-KV5050-4-Poles-Brushless-Motor-IM084-/300557068653?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item45fa98e96d
A (pair of) good, high performance motor(s), is what I need. (The first and possibly second, relatively expensive object on my list, and it could be 2 of them. Relative to the other objects on my list.)

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/aeronaut_compasses.html
This, to me, seems cool, a working compass inside a ship, but it seems utterly pointless to install since people wouldn't be able to see it.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/aeronaut_horns.html
I was actually thinking of using the "Double Fanfare", but I'm undecided on the size of the horns.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/aeronaut-hinges.html
Hinges are good, for when you want to access the hatches, or the engine room (accessing the engine room would be simple, all you've got to do, is tilt the entire bridge 90 degrees.... that would work, unless it was attached to the rest of the ship, via cables.)

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/speed_controllers.html
Probably a piece of unnecessary buying.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/m4_propshafts.html
Now, how far could I get into the project, without a propeller shaft?

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/caldercraft_83303.html
Why not put a decorative rim along the side of the boat?

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/graupner_ships_boats.html
Lifeboats, are a must.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/krick_blocks.html
Brass blocks, for when you want to convert fast pulling power, into powerful moving action. But, I've got to be careful about how many pulleys use, otherwise the hook may stick. This is strictly deck crane-related.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/krick_bollards.html
We do not want the boat to drift away into the abis (not sure what the correct spelling of it), unmanned, do we?

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/mantua_flags.html
Why not put some flags on the stern?

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Work_Support_Tool.html
Something to support my work on, to give it support.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/new_maquettes_navigation_lights.html
Where would my ship be without its navigation lights? (Would like your opinion to this one.)

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/rb-masthead-lamps.html
I thought of swapping the lights fitted to the filters on the link above, to the ones in this link, this is because I like these lights better, but I like the filters too. I just hope that they fit.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/rb-cable-reels.html
Slap on some motors and pulleys, and you have a good pair of anchor cable reels.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/krick_chain_oval_link.html
Speaking of which, here is some chain for the winch.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/krick-anchors.html
Took a while for me to figure this one out, but I think I've decided, it's going to be the Hall Anchor.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/robbe-cranes.html
Presently, I saw these cranes... but so far, all I've been taking about, are the looks. They look okay, but it's not all about the looks, it's about the functionality, and I don't know if they actually function (this has to be one of the most important aspects of my ship, is its ability to have a working crane).

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/robbe-deck-lamps.html
"LET THERE BE LIGHT!"

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/robbe-rigging-thread.html
Now, where did that other cable go to...

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/admiralty_lighting.html
Now, where would the fancy navigation systems be, without the system to operate it.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/bow_thrusters.html
lets end the links, with the second most expensive aspect of my ship, the bow thruster (Thinking of taking the biggest one, at least it isn't as expensive as the primary motors).

As far as the Remote control system. That's one of the biggest issues with my ship (It needs to operate the lights, operate the various on-board motors and the rudder).
I thought of buying a toy mobile crane.

Sounds crazy, right. but if you think about it, the ship is basically a big mobile crane, because it has steering and it can operate the crane on top.

Only downfalls for it would be the fact that it cannot operate the bow thruster or the lights. But the Remote Controller has to come from somewhere. I can't make a hand held set. (Nor can I design the radio system which would be able to communicate with the ship).

the number of holds that my ship will have, would be 2, serviced by a single middle crane (would prefer 2 cranes, but the remote does not support more then one). if it did, then I'd take into acocunt the crane sizes and try to have more holds.

The ship would mainly be made out of balsa wood and then coated with paint. Nothing much else to it, it's jsut the type of paint that i choose which count, I need to get paint which which will last through the hit, the cold, the wet and the dry.

While deciding the look of the hull, I actually refereed to many of the links which were posted at the time. but now that I see more, I will need to check them out.

The original design, is based on http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=116914 from Open transport tycoon deluxe (sorry that I didn't mention this earlier, so I'm mentioning it now, the "coaster medium" shows all of the ship).

Thank you all for taking an interest so far. There's still a lot to get sorted though.

One last thing, it would be nice to have operating hold covers too.

This is going to be a mammoth project, which is going to take me a while to get right. But so long as I stick to my plans and scale, I will get it right.

P.s. the stern extension below the surface, represents the propeller shaft. I might remove it in a while.

[Norseman]

One last thing, it would be nice to have operating hold covers too.

Hi Ben

I think you will get a good few replies from people re your list.
You might like to read Ken's Gry Maritha build http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=33823.0
What sort of area will your set up cover?

Dave

[Mad_Mike]

ill stick me oar in first then. Youve obviouslty been very busy but we can get that collosal build cost down. Those props combined with that motor are no good, youl end up with a fire on board let alone smoke. youl only need one prop the 55 sounds about right. power it by this 755 from action:
http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/stuff1.php

the esc is a must, this should do it i reckon:

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/mtroniks-viper15.html

get your propshaft, motor mount and coupling from this fella:

http://www.marksmodelbits.co.uk/

you wont be able to just paint the balsa youl need to seal it first. You could use thinned down sanding sealer, using celulose thinner, then apply a couple of neat coats or, use shinking dope and tissue, or even a combination of both. balsa on its own is too soft and porous.

[Bendragon1337]

what kind of money do you want to be spending?

Probably as little as possible, bit then again, I would like maneuverability as then, I wouldn't need to buy tugs to move the ship into place. (but that is interesting).

Hi Ben
I really hope you post pictures of your garden as the work progresses. Sounds like a big undertaking

Yeah. I'd quite agree.

Have you a date in mind and maybe a general location? I ask because that affects what vesel will match up. Mayhemers might be more specific in suggestions; Especially with the hulls already available - you can save a lot of time by using one.

I'm hoping to get a date of 1960s-1990s erra in, but to be honest, theme doesn't really matter much to me.

I think you will get a good few replies from people re your list.
You might like to read Ken's Gry Maritha build http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=33823.0
What sort of area will your set up cover?

It's hard to say, I'm still deciding, I guess it all depends on the reach of the deck cranes.

Hmm, I have read the thread, and I've begun thinking through the idea of train ferries and freighters.

The idea of a train ferry had some to mind quite a while ago, but at the time, I didn't really know what to do about it.

There's many things that I still need to agree on. But looking at the threads that have been linked, I may have a look at an old hull that I found in the garage, and possibly make something out of it. But I guess that's for another thread.

But the information that has been retrieved is invaluable (saved a lot of heat and flames), thank you very much.

[Mad_Mike]

i had a bit of a problem trying to picture this boat in my head of the final product.

does it want to be something like this?

http://www.shipsandharbours.com/picture/number5864.asp

would converting one of these do for a crane?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Truck-series-remote-giant-crane-remote-control-model-car-toys-children-gifts-/150787983277?pt=AU_Toys_Hobbies_Radio_Controlled_Vehicles&hash=item231baa07ad

or:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Full-Function-RC-Crane-Accessories-FREE-POSTAGE-/170808666216?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item27c4fd6868

[malcolmfrary]

As to the motors - is this a cargo boat or a torpedo boat?  Agreed with Mad_Mike that the combination is going to be a disaster, but rather than something that will blast the deck cargo over the stern, I would be looking at a 35mm three blade prop and a 385 (or 5 pole 400) run on a bit less than it rated voltage, and a low cost 10 or 15 amp BRUSHED ESC.  Or two, if you have the channels and want the extra maneuverability.  Consider making your own rudder - the bottom end is basically a piece of bent brass rod with the blade laminated up from balsa sheet, with the top running through a brass tube.

(the cost is like... ouch, wouldn't be surprised that it would go above £100).

Generally, my costing rule of thumb is "£100, plus £100 for each foot of length."  Scary how often this works out, and for how wide a range of models and types.

The one in Mad_Mikes link would be about 2 metres long at your scale, and would weigh in at about 26lb.  That would certainly need either a 545 or a pair of 385s.

[Bendragon1337]

i had a bit of a problem trying to picture this boat in my head of the final product.

does it want to be something like this?

http://www.shipsandharbours.com/picture/number5864.asp

Well, it's fictional, so it's a collection of parts.

It's going to have those cranes and the stern that's in the link. The general bridge and stern would look like http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/12-linind/docks/twohatchcoast.jpg (I prefer the round stern to the flat stern, and those diagonal bridge supports.)

would converting one of these do for a crane?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Truck-series-remote-giant-crane-remote-control-model-car-toys-children-gifts-/150787983277?pt=AU_Toys_Hobbies_Radio_Controlled_Vehicles&hash=item231baa07ad[/quote]Yeah, that would do. But gutting it seems like that it's going to be rather hard, and making it more realistic (having pulley blocks), would be somewhat difficult. I could have a go.

As to the motors - is this a cargo boat or a torpedo boat?  Agreed with Mad_Mike that the combination is going to be a disaster, but rather than something that will blast the deck cargo over the stern

This made me laugh.

I would be looking at a 35mm three blade prop and a 385 (or 5 pole 400) run on a bit less than it rated voltage, and a low cost 10 or 15 amp BRUSHED ESC.  Or two, if you have the channels and want the extra maneuverability.  Consider making your own rudder - the bottom end is basically a piece of bent brass rod with the blade laminated up from balsa sheet, with the top running through a brass tube.Generally, my costing rule of thumb is "£100, plus £100 for each foot of length."  Scary how often this works out, and for how wide a range of models and types.

With all serious in mind, there is no specific boating lake, and I feel that the waters can be a bit... Unforgiving around my area. (the lakes that we do have, are used by boaters. and some of the lakes can be a bit... bogged down with weeds, and if they're not, then there's always the problem of bigger boaters sailing, there is a flowing river, but if the boat looses power, there can be a big smash,  when it hits the waterfalls (I'm not sure how to measure the river's flow speed), so safety for the ship has to be my #1 priority. I can't install a lake in the garden, since we have a dog. It's a tough decision to face. When I get my own house, I could probably have a proper place to set up a proper layout). I prefer my ship to be a "torpedo boat" then to loose against the currents. Does that sound just? I don't want to see £100 of ship get churned / broken up.

In all respect, in real life, ships have to be designed for the environment that they are are going to work in (What I mean by this, is that you will not see a international freighter doing a job which can be easily done by a barge, or vice versa, as in you wont see a barge crossing the north Atlantic). And I guess this is just one of those cases. So I've just got to make do with what I've got.

Personally, I live in an area where golf, rowing and sailing dominates.

Each possible sailing place around my area, I feel, is as bad as the others, in some aspect or another.

Also, there are no other model boats sailing, so it all depends on me trying to rescue the boat if it gets stranded (so rescue attempts have to be revised, this could be achieved by another model boat, or with a long pole shaped like an L). And even then things can still go wrong.

Bottom line is that my area doesn't take kindly to model boats.

The boat's design has to be fresh and new, as it would have to withstand ab-normal conditions (Ab-normal, as in what you wouldn't find in a regular model boating lake, except large waves.)

One thing that has to be rock solid, would be the bollards, as they will secure the ship so it couldn't go too far. (I say bollards, because they're used for mooring in real life, so I guess the same applies here.)

Building a boat, is only half of the challenge here.

The one in Mad_Mikes link would be about 2 metres long at your scale, and would weigh in at about 26lb.  That would certainly need either a 545 or a pair of 385s.

Yeah. That's Quite possible.

[Mad_Mike]

i understand exactly what your talking about. The lake i sail at is massive and model boating isnt too popular where i am so im the only one there, my trawler is 5 times more powerful than it needs to be on your average model boating lake. if you take malcolms prop recommendation and pair that with a 700 motor like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Model-Boat-Electric-Motor-700-6-18v-and-mount-/400260923951?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item5d3169022f

if you run 12v you will be able to go slowly for scale but when the stuff hits the fan you can give it some welly and itl plane out of danger nicely.

btw the amount of stuff you want to work on this boat you will be pushing beyond 300 quid, your talking 150 quid for the rc gear and power train. Thats WITHOUT a hull to put it in.

[Mad_Mike]

you know for a hull you could use this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRAWLER-BOAT-HULL-/190669733842?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item2c64cd3fd2

its similar to the picture you sent;
http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/12-linind/docks/twohatchcoast.jpg

[Bendragon1337]

i understand exactly what your talking about. The lake i sail at is massive and model boating isnt too popular where i am so im the only one there, my trawler is 5 times more powerful than it needs to be on your average model boating lake. if you take malcolms prop recommendation and pair that with a 700 motor like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Model-Boat-Electric-Motor-700-6-18v-and-mount-/400260923951?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item5d3169022f

if you run 12v you will be able to go slowly for scale but when the stuff hits the fan you can give it some welly and itl plane out of danger nicely.

btw the amount of stuff you want to work on this boat you will be pushing beyond 300 quid, your talking 150 quid for the rc gear and power train. Thats WITHOUT a hull to put it in.

As much as I want to prove to you that you're wrong. I must conceded.

I wonder what RC system that I should ahve. Might go around again looking for one. This ship would require a hell load of servos and motors to operate all of the features.

you know for a hull you could use this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRAWLER-BOAT-HULL-/190669733842?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item2c64cd3fd2

its similar to the picture you sent;
http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/12-linind/docks/twohatchcoast.jpg

It's perfect. It's probably better then a scratch-built hull.

[Norseman]

It's perfect. It's probably better then a scratch-built hull.

  You have just saved a lot of time, effort, and materials cost there Ben
You can always scratch build your second boat when you get hooked on the hobby
I hear the Betty Ford Clinic is opening a wing just for Mayhemmers

Dave

[Bendragon1337]

Doubt it, I think my second ship would have a pre-made hull too.

[Bendragon1337]

Thanks all for all who have helped me.

I really appreciate it.

Edit: I think I may put off the project for a couple of years (when I actually get a job), but I have the insight to do it.

The reason for this, is because I don't have enough money right now.

[Mad_Mike]

As much as I want to prove to you that you're wrong. I must conceded.

i must conceded eh? had to google that  you may prove me wrong if you wish, maybe you will do