thanks for the replys lads ,yes i know the murdy dam dont know what time it opens or when the guys meet up,, ive been to the largs one a few times years ago,, when i was down on my bike , i was on ebay there see some little ready made tugs or bismarck for sale 40- 60 quid are they ok to start with,, i fancy building my own once i suss it out a bit more, is there any other things i could be doin whilst im waiting, or where to look, dan