Topic: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions (Read 37448 times)

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #75 on:** July 29, 2012, 01:55:54 am »

Quote from: john s 2 on July 28, 2012, 11:12:11 pm

This sounds like the meths version.Now solid fuel is used. I was aware of an American incident. Sadly to many people would overfill the fuel burner. What was a young child doing so near? Possibly he tipped it? This could with overfilled burner result in flames.Just a thought was petrol being wrongly used? Sad that injury occured. John

Definately, I had a Mamod donkey engine when I was a boy, had many a 'near miss' with the meths burner, a sort of open tray with a perforated screen over the top, fill with meths, chuck a match on and hope you hadn't spilled any. these days that sort of thing wouldn't be allowed.

Regards,
Nick.

derekwarner · « **Reply #76 on:** July 29, 2012, 04:52:53 am »

Guys......this thread is typical of Mayhem

1. the thoughts offered by those who err on the side of safety
2. the comments offered by those who take a diametrically opposed view and suggest that if the manufacturer built it.... it must be OK

...and an obscure Bar [pressure/volume] rating rule may apply

so why worry?

In reality, there is only one accepted stance & that is if an owner of such a device wishes to use the steam assembly in a public environment then the local ruling conditions will apply

I do remember some 50 years ago.....

...the father of a current member building some "a sort of open tray with a perforated screen over the top, fill with meths, chuck a match on and hope you hadn't spilled any"

The only thing was .....

..... that I was not allowed to strike the match.......thanks Dad

Derek

Circlip · « **Reply #77 on:** July 29, 2012, 07:41:32 am »

You've missed the 2a type derek.

The one that says "Stuff you, it's my money and I'll do what I like."

The type ones are those who are desperately trying to keep their rights to operate safely and not have to justify to the "authorities" a knee jerk blanket ban created by the actions of numpties.

No sensationalism in the explosive story? Bovine excreata, tradgedy sells newsprint and why compromise a good story by contaminating it with the truth.

On another thread, it has been expounded about a "Failsafe" element with regards to model aircraft setting fire to a cornfield and "Who is to blame" What actually caused the fire? Construction material of Aircraft? Lipo battery? Powerline it hit? Would a failsafe have helped? Was one actually fitted.

In playing with our own toys which contain two potentially dangerous components, Fire and Steam, if you want to do your "Own" thing fine, but please do it far enough away from those who may be affected by your stupidity.

Regards Ian.

muleears · « **Reply #78 on:** July 29, 2012, 04:19:37 pm »

Gosh gentlemen, I didn't mean to start such an exchange. I simply want to know the difference, advantages, disadvantages of pure butane vs. butane propane mix. I can buy butane in 300ml cans for about $3, (2 GBP if my conversion is correct). Propane is cheaper and the mix is hard to find.

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #79 on:** July 29, 2012, 04:54:31 pm »

Hi Cal, if butane is the easiest one to get, then use that, the calorific values are not much different, the advantage of having a little propane mixed with the butane is that it lowers the temperature at which the gas vaporizes, butane freezes at about -2 where as propane is a lot lower, which means it will work better in cold weather.
Regards,
Nick

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #80 on:** July 29, 2012, 05:00:12 pm »

Quote from: muleears on July 29, 2012, 04:19:37 pm

Gosh gentlemen, I didn't mean to start such an exchange. I simply want to know the difference, advantages, disadvantages of pure butane vs. butane propane mix. I can buy butane in 300ml cans for about $3, (2 GBP if my conversion is correct). Propane is cheaper and the mix is hard to find.

Cal,
I have to agree with Nick, go for the Butane.
As your burner is attached to the tank this will transfer heat to the tank and keep the pressure up and give you a good burn.
You may have to buy a connector to transfer the gas to your existing tank, the type that Nick has previously suggested.
George.

muleears · « **Reply #81 on:** July 29, 2012, 05:03:15 pm »

Thanks Nick, I don't plan on running it anywhere near those temps so that shouldn't be a problem for me. If it's not at least 10*C I won't be running it.

muleears · « **Reply #82 on:** July 29, 2012, 05:12:37 pm »

Thanks, George. I believe I will order some butane. My 300ml. can is running low!

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #83 on:** July 29, 2012, 05:42:59 pm »

Quote from: derekwarner_decoy on July 29, 2012, 04:52:53 am

Guys......this thread is typical of Mayhem

1. the thoughts offered by those who err on the side of safety
2. the comments offered by those who take a diametrically opposed view and suggest that if the manufacturer built it.... it must be OK ...and an obscure Bar [pressure/volume] rating rule may apply so why worry?

In reality, there is only one accepted stance & that is if an owner of such a device wishes to use the steam assembly in a public environment then the local ruling conditions will apply

I do remember some 50 years ago..... ...the father of a current member building some "a sort of open tray with a perforated screen over the top, fill with meths, chuck a match on and hope you hadn't spilled any"

The only thing was ..... ..... that I was not allowed to strike the match.......thanks Dad

Derek

Derek,
You seam to have missed the point on my comments to Cal on firing his boiler, he was not firing it up in a public place but in his own premises and only to prove
that the safety valve was working properly.
I had missed his post that he had already fired his boiler so it now appears that it is safe enough.

I am not familiar with code of practice in U.S.A but as he is very much on his own there is no reason for him not to experiment on his own premises to become proficient in operating his steam plant.

There is nobody as safety conscious on testing steam plants as I am, as the members of my club can testify when presenting a boiler for testing so don't come up with this diametrically opposed to safety statement that you have quoted

You seam to have double standards in boiler operations as in your post (Quote. 2. the comments offered by those who take a diametrically opposed view and suggest that if the manufacturer built it.... it must be OK

...and an obscure Bar [pressure/volume] rating rule may apply

so why worry? )

When you bought your boiler from Alex on the other side of the world, complete with Test Cert, did you after taking it out of the wrapping have it hydraulic tested before firing it up.
Of course you didn't, as you accepted by trust that the manufacturer had said it was tested and it was O.K. so you had no worries, it's the same with Maccsteam
so what's the difference with say Wilesco, or Mamod ?

It has to be presumed that people using steam plants in model boats should treat them with respect and responsibility and that they are not 3-4year old children operating models in there front parlor without supervision of parents and causing ALLEGED fires that can severely burn the operators, my heart goes out to those that have been burned, burns are very painful, as well I have experienced.

Now as I presume that you will post to my comments please do not use these childish funny faces that you are prone to use as I will not reply to your post if you do.
George.

john s 2 · « **Reply #84 on:** July 29, 2012, 08:40:57 pm »

Derek. The obscure three bar rule exists so low pressure steam model makers can produce models that do not come under testing rules that apply to bigger and higher pressure boilers. Should you wish to read these rules you can purchase a copy from the society of Model Engineers. You are correct in saying that rules can vary.In practise in my opinion its what the insurence company will allow is what matters. John.

derekwarner · « **Reply #85 on:** July 30, 2012, 12:46:22 am »

Cal/john s 2

I fully understand the existence of Bar [pressure/volume] "Rules" for low pressure/volume model boiler applications both in the UK and Australia, however they themselves cease to be "Rules" by the obscurity bestowed upon them by the insurance industry

I have re-read the entire thread and cannot find reference to any indication that you wanted to use the components solely for test purposes in a private environment, however I did view your video & comment constructively

Conversely I have not read where you indicated a desire to use the same in a public environment

You have commented that the seller indicated a 45 PSI boiler test, however did not provide any documentary evidence to this point [buyer beware]

ooyah/2

George.....I am not sure who Alex is...as I purchased my Scottish boiler from Sandy Campbell of ACS Engineering

You are correct, I did not request or subject it to a second hydraulic test or an Australian pressure test as ACS Engineering were in a recognised listing of British model boiler manufacturers

Derek

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #86 on:** July 30, 2012, 11:40:24 am »

Personal Message (Online)

Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
« Reply #85 on: Today at 12:46:22 AM »

ooyah/2

George.....I am not sure who Alex is...as I purchased my Scottish boiler from Sandy Campbell of ACS Engineering

You are correct, I did not request or subject it to a second hydraulic test or an Australian pressure test as ACS Engineering were in a recognised listing of British model boiler manufacturers

Derek

ALEX is an ex engine and boiler maker who lives up the road from me, but alas no longer is in business

In Scotland the name ALEXANDER can be abbreviated to ALEX or SANDY , I will leave it up to you to figure out what ASC means.

Hiding behind Australian testing rules doesn't excuse inflammatory accusations in your No 2 quote regarding diametrically opposed views, you yourself has accepted that ASC's boilers are safe , why not other well known manufacturers, or do they have to be on the Australian list as well ?

George.

derekwarner · « **Reply #87 on:** July 30, 2012, 12:41:29 pm »

George....sincerely, I did not understand your reference to Alex as .....Alexander/Sandy by name sake within the Scottish vocabulary......clearly as you state I now understand that it is the same person...

I have the greatest respect for the person who electronically signed his Drawings and written communications as A.F Campbell.......as an individual/component manufacturer and as a communicator and as a man with a great sense of humour as displayed in his hundreds of postings in PD's

Sandy Campbell provided lesson after lesson to Paddleduck members interested in steam...they are all in the PD downloads section

With respect to the previous issue of the need ..or no need for a pressure gauge and test certificate for the particular low pressure application....etc... could I ask that we just leave it rest as a difference of opinion

Derek

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #88 on:** July 30, 2012, 02:36:57 pm »

Quote from: derekwarner_decoy on July 30, 2012, 12:41:29 pm

George....sincerely, I did not understand your reference to Alex as .....Alexander/Sandy by name sake within the Scottish vocabulary......clearly as you state I now understand that it is the same person...

I have the greatest respect for the person who electronically signed his Drawings and written communications as A.F Campbell.......as an individual/component manufacturer and as a communicator and as a man with a great sense of humour as displayed in his hundreds of postings in PD's

Sandy Campbell provided lesson after lesson to Paddleduck members interested in steam...they are all in the PD downloads section

With respect to the previous issue of the need ..or no need for a pressure gauge and test certificate for the particular low pressure application....etc... could I ask that we just leave it rest as a difference of opinion

Derek

No Derek I won't let it rest.
I feel strongly slighted that you should include me in one of those who are diametrically opposed to your opinion.

I have always tried to give constructive advice on this forum of my experiences over the years in building and running steam plants and refraining from making caustic remarks on members postings and advice given as you have done..
I also stand by my remarks on no need for a pressure gauge on a Wilesco boiler as there isn't a bush to connect it to so the member has wasted money on buying one and it would spoil the integrity of the boiler by adding a bush to a brass boiler.

John started this by his remark on lighting the blue touch paper , but you sure fanned the flames.

I have had my say and have nothing further to add.

George.

muleears · « **Reply #89 on:** July 30, 2012, 11:26:24 pm »

Out of curiosity and since I cannot find anything of any value on google, except for boilers for park rides and other large scale or full size hobby and collectible trains and tractors. I have posted on a US site in an attempt to find what the regs are here in the states. I'm sure it will vary from state to state. I do expect some municipalities that have public lakes will have some regulation and I"m sure most, if not all, clubs will as well. I'll post what I find out here.

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #90 on:** July 30, 2012, 11:31:03 pm »

Hi Cal, any luck with the reverse problem yet? I know the guy from PMR just uses an airline and a bath of water for his boiler testing, he told me that US regs are not as stringent as in the UK and some other countries. Perhaps you could phone/email him for advice....
Regards,
Nick

muleears · « **Reply #91 on:** July 31, 2012, 09:27:07 am »

Nick, haven't had a chance to proceed with the reverse problem, blasted job keeps getting in the way!

If I were just independently wealthy that wouldn't be a problem

. I did however get one response on my post on the US forum and this individual tells me there are no government regulations pertaining to boilers the size we use. He doesn't mention a maximum size though. Just thought I'd pass that along.

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #92 on:** July 31, 2012, 09:31:35 am »

Quote from: muleears on July 31, 2012, 09:27:07 am

Nick, haven't had a chance to proceed with the reverse problem, blasted job keeps getting in the way! If I were just independently wealthy that wouldn't be a problem . I did however get one response on my post on the US forum and this individual tells me there are no government regulations pertaining to boilers the size we use. He doesn't mention a maximum size though. Just thought I'd pass that along.

Pretty much the same here, Mamod, Wilesco and Jensen type boilers are classed as 'toy' steam and are not subject to the same reg's as their larger cousins....

derekwarner · « **Reply #93 on:** July 31, 2012, 10:36:02 am »

Cal......maintain with resolving & confirming your local responsibilities & requirements

...[which I suggested some 6 days ago] ....really nothing more nor nothing less

Then use your equipment according to your laws/statutes....very simple........

Disappointingly, some of the comments offered in this thread clearly display a lack of understanding in the consequences of Law ..........Derek

PS..... the Type 504 posting ERROR message was within Mayhem.........I will try again

504's All cleared away OK
ken

Circlip · « **Reply #94 on:** July 31, 2012, 11:34:59 am »

And before you ask, the same answer applies re boiler "Testing" on this forum and not the numpty way of sticking an airline to it.

Regards Ian.

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #95 on:** July 31, 2012, 03:18:07 pm »

I quite agree Ian, I was quite taken aback when told about the airline method, I tried to find the relevant message, but Ebay delete messages after 6 months. I was only using it as an example of the lack of regs in the US. Hydraulic testing is the only real safe way to establish the integrity of a boiler. I get all my boilers from Maccsteam, and all come with a proper test certificate.
Regards,
Nick

muleears · « **Reply #96 on:** July 31, 2012, 03:52:08 pm »

I don't want anyone to think I will be utilizing my boilers in a fashion that would endanger anyone but myself. And I don't plan to do that! In the future I will fire my boilers for the first time in my back yard. I have a location were I can be 80m from my house and 120m from my only neighbor. If I cannot find a source for hydraulic testing, what alternative is suggested?

Nick, I think I have found where the engine is binding. In the pic below, in the red circle you can see the pin (end of the crank) protrudes from the counterbalance. It appears this is rubbing on the back of the lower portion of the connecting rod. The engine binds when these two meet and it is free when they aren't. Apparently the lower portion of the connecting rod has been slightly bent inwards. I will straighten it and see how it goes. Thanks for sticking with me.

john s 2 · « **Reply #97 on:** July 31, 2012, 04:12:04 pm »

To test my boilers i use a Rothenburger pump used by plumbers to pressure test central heating systems.An adapter has to be made. Here in Britain most tool hire shops hire them. John.

muleears · « **Reply #98 on:** July 31, 2012, 04:40:48 pm »

Thanks John, pardon my ignorance but does that use water to test or air? What pressure do you suggest my Krick (Wilesco) boiler be tested to?

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #99 on:** July 31, 2012, 05:04:30 pm »

Hi Cal, that could be whats causing the problem, if it still binds after straightening, dress the protruding end of the shaft up with a sharp file, a few strokes at a time until it eases off. The Rothenburger pump uses water.you could also make a rudimentary version using a hand boiler feed pump and a pressure gauge, as shown in the attached photo. Personally, I wouldn't take it much over 40 psi for a working pressure of 20 psi.
Regards,
Nick.

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Author Topic: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions (Read 37448 times)