Topic: Handmade steam engines.... on a budget (Read 52755 times)

sean Half-pint works · « **Reply #175 on:** February 19, 2013, 05:05:30 pm »

Just read this end to end, and am sorely tempted to play with my spare mamod boiler now!

Keep the photos coming, I may well pirate some ideas off you!

Sean

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #176 on:** February 19, 2013, 05:33:40 pm »

end to end?!? most of it is waffle lol

. Im pleased to hear your inspired which is what i was trying achieve with this thread in the first place. If you do something with the mamod boiler id be interested to see.

sean Half-pint works · « **Reply #177 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:50:13 pm »

It may be waffle, but it is good waffle...

The Mamod TE1A traction engine boiler is a nice free steaming boiler, so I feel something could easilly be done with one...

Sean

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #178 on:** February 22, 2013, 03:16:01 pm »

If im to use this in a public lake am i going to need a boiler certificate?

sean Half-pint works · « **Reply #179 on:** February 22, 2013, 04:30:38 pm »

It USED to be boilers under 1 pint capasity were exempt from needing one, BUT don't quote me, its been a while since i spoke to a tame boiler inspector...

Sean

frazer heslop · « **Reply #180 on:** February 22, 2013, 05:33:26 pm »

I think you are referring to the bar/litre rule but its not universally recognized .I just steam early doors when no ones about

I have the details/drawings and calcs for that boiler Mike some where

cheers

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #181 on:** February 22, 2013, 06:13:10 pm »

well where i sail its isolated most of the year.

hammer · « **Reply #182 on:** February 22, 2013, 06:47:15 pm »

Yes the below three bar/litre rule, Multiply the pressure in bar (15psi) by the total volume of the boiler. Up until 1/1/2013, only one test required ever. But now steam test yearly. Boilers in boats, the burner must run out before the danger water level, unless water feed is fitted. My club tester is saying bringing the boat to shore and pumping water in by hand is not good enough. As there is no reliable automatic feed Known to me. mad mad

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #183 on:** February 22, 2013, 07:15:43 pm »

I read your thread on building the boiler i notice youve changed the design though halfway through the boat build. It was reading your thread when it crossed my mind about certificates. The capacity of my boiler is about 200ml at 1 bar. It has a bar litre of roughly 0.2.

hammer · « **Reply #184 on:** February 22, 2013, 07:36:31 pm »

Not quite right Mike, the the cross water tube original design was built to the 1.5 rule as was in force 2009. It was 1litre capasity running @1.5 bar = 1.5 bar/litre. The later boiler built to the later 3 bar/litre rule and is just under that. As I said in the thread the sall boiler ran out of steam with the 1"+1/2" double acting twin.

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #185 on:** February 22, 2013, 08:21:42 pm »

oh i thought you changed it because the water top up wasnt working properly and the boiler was top heavy. My mistake. I coulnt read it all its a hell of a long thread at 42 pages. I liked the design of your original very unusual i must say. With the criteria of a low centre of gravity boiler I sometimes think of things i would do and i came up with the probably silly idea of using a copper donut as the vessel with a ring burner under it. I thought id have a look at what could be used but came up with nothing but antique jelly moulds and stuff. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-copper-doughnut-ring-jelly-mould-or-aspic-mold-Harrods-Ltd-tin-lined-/190795128695?pt=UK_Collectables_Kitchenalia_RL&hash=item2c6c469f77
cant imagine trying to make that though.

steamboatmodel · « **Reply #186 on:** February 23, 2013, 03:04:15 pm »

We haven't yet got to the state of testing that you have in the UK and down under, but I thought that a tester only checked the boiler not the whole operating system and the boat.
Regards,
Gerald.

Quote from: hammer on February 22, 2013, 06:47:15 pm

Yes the below three bar/litre rule, Multiply the pressure in bar (15psi) by the total volume of the boiler. Up until 1/1/2013, only one test required ever. But now steam test yearly. Boilers in boats, the burner must run out before the danger water level, unless water feed is fitted. My club tester is saying bringing the boat to shore and pumping water in by hand is not good enough. As there is no reliable automatic feed Known to me. mad mad

hammer · « **Reply #187 on:** February 23, 2013, 06:23:23 pm »

Yes a pressure test first at twice working pressure without fittings. Then the steam test, ie; fittings at working pressure, the pressure gauge will be checked and marked with red line, the safety valve must only let the pressure rise no more than 10% with full heat on. Gone are the days when we didn't care about anyone else, and ruled the world. Great Britain

TAG · « **Reply #188 on:** February 24, 2013, 03:23:51 pm »

I was interested on hammer's statement "no reliable automatic feed known to me" in an earlier post. If he wishes to purchase Model Engineer on 8 March 2013 he can read my article on "Reliability of automatic boiler controls for steam boats". I must admit that I cannot understand his Boiler Inspector's comments about bringing the boat into the bank and restoring the boiler water level using a hand pump.
Tim

steamboatmodel · « **Reply #189 on:** February 24, 2013, 03:42:06 pm »

Quote from: TAG on February 24, 2013, 03:23:51 pm

I was interested on hammer's statement "no reliable automatic feed known to me" in an earlier post. If he wishes to purchase Model Engineer on 8 March 2013 he can read my article on "Reliability of automatic boiler controls for steam boats". I must admit that I cannot understand his Boiler Inspector's comments about bringing the boat into the bank and restoring the boiler water level using a hand pump.
Tim

That is what I was wondering about too, I thought a "Boiler Inspector" job was to just look at the soundness of the boiler? If you switched the Boiler to another model would it be required to be retested?
Regards,
Gerald.
PS I will have to keep an eye open for your article.

TAG · « **Reply #190 on:** February 24, 2013, 05:54:28 pm »

Gerald
You have just opened a can of snakes! All the regulations in the Uk and EU are titled " The Pressure System Regulations 2000" and "The Pressure Equipment Safety Regulations 1999" the main operative words being 'Pressure System' so the inspector has to look at everything, the Boiler is just part of the pressure System and so it goes on............ Hopefully the regulations are not so stringent in Canada.
In front of me is the Green Book titled "The Examination & Testing of Minature Steam Boilers", 26 pages of concentrated information of what to do so I shall leave it at that.
Regards
Tim

hammer · « **Reply #191 on:** February 24, 2013, 09:52:28 pm »

Tim the promise of your article is the only reason I have kept me order for M.E.. So will be here soon I can't wait. The trouble I have with my club is it all train train train.

steamboatmodel · « **Reply #192 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:42:59 pm »

Quote from: TAG on February 24, 2013, 05:54:28 pm

Gerald
You have just opened a can of snakes! All the regulations in the Uk and EU are titled " The Pressure System Regulations 2000" and "The Pressure Equipment Safety Regulations 1999" the main operative words being 'Pressure System' so the inspector has to look at everything, the Boiler is just part of the pressure System and so it goes on............ Hopefully the regulations are not so stringent in Canada.
In front of me is the Green Book titled "The Examination & Testing of Minature Steam Boilers", 26 pages of concentrated information of what to do so I shall leave it at that.
Regards
Tim

Tim fortunately the Governments here has not noticed us model builders, but I expect our day will come too. I have researched the current regulations for the province of Ontario and fortunately most of the smaller model boilers fall under a size limit and are exempt from the more stringent regulations and testing. I have found that if you are making a toy boiler for sale in Canada it must be tested to three times its working pressure. None of the boilers I make are required to be tested as they all fall under the exemption and are not for sale, but for my own peace of mind I have always tested them both by an initial Hydrostatic to three times working pressure and Steaming test that the safeties work and will not allow the pressure to increase more than 10% at full flame. I normally repeat the tests every year with the hydro at one and a half working pressure. I don’t have a copy of the Green Book, but do have a copy of the miniature boiler codes from down under and rely heavily on it and my copies of K.N Harris's books.
But back to one of my questions “If you switched the Boiler to another model would it be required to be retested?”
Regards,
Gerald.

Circlip · « **Reply #193 on:** February 25, 2013, 04:38:49 pm »

If your boiler passes the test, how does the model that houses it eventually, invalidate its certificate?

Regards Ian.

steamboatmodel · « **Reply #194 on:** February 25, 2013, 06:03:32 pm »

Quote from: hammer on February 22, 2013, 06:47:15 pm

.... Up until 1/1/2013, only one test required ever. But now steam test yearly. Boilers in boats, the burner must run out before the danger water level, unless water feed is fitted. My club tester is saying bringing the boat to shore and pumping water in by hand is not good enough. As there is no reliable automatic feed Known to me. mad mad

Ian I agree but from the above it reads to me that the "Club Tester" is looking at the whole system, not just the Boiler and my question still is if you just move the Boiler from one boat to another or if you change the burner or feed pumps do you then have to have the boat you move it to Tested?
It sounds to me like the "Club Tester" in question would be satisfied if you installed an electric motor for drive and just had the boiler for display.
Regards,
Gerald.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #195 on:** February 25, 2013, 06:25:03 pm »

Gerald,
Here is the link to EXAMINATION & TESTING OF MINIATURE STEAM BOILERS this is the new 2012 Regs.
You can down load the 26 odd pages for your perusal. http://www.normodeng.org.uk/

As far as I know this super seeds the Blue book 2008, don't know what the colour of the new book is.
I hope that this is of help to you.
George.

steamboatmodel · « **Reply #196 on:** February 25, 2013, 06:36:04 pm »

Thank you George,
I know that non of the Codes and testing apply to where I live, but I think being current on what other modellers are having to do is important as you never know when your own Government will decide to do.
Regards,
Gerald.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #197 on:** February 25, 2013, 09:05:14 pm »

Gerald,

I think that you will find that the Gov/t has nothing to do with the code of practise, as far as I am aware its The Health and Safety Executive and the Insurance companies that want Certification in order to take on the risk of public liability and accidents.

One of the problems as I see it is that all the Regs are related mainly to Locos with the high pressures and coal fires along with carrying passengers with the public in close proximity and it's still a bit vague regarding model boat steam plants.

Unfortunately many people have the misconception that steam boat boilers and Loco boilers if they rupture it's like a grenade going off with shrapnel all over the place which isn't the case and with model boat boilers any mishaps usually happen out on the lake and it's a bang and a great escape of steam.

I am not advocating that we don't test and certify boilers but it always seam strange to me that the Toy type Mamod and Midwest type steam plants have to be included due to their small volume and low steam pressure.

In all the years that I have been involved in steam I have never seen a boiler burst, the nearest indecent was when a member of my club screwed down the safety valve to get his boat to go faster which fortunately was discovered before he set sail.

Your question on installing a certified boiler in another boat ? yes you can, it's the boiler that's tested and the initial test must be carried out with the boiler out of the boat with no cladding so who is to say what boat it goes into after testing, nothing in the Regs about it and I don't know where the boiler tester who says that a hand feed pump is unacceptable got this info from.

Anyway go and enjoy your steam boating.

George.

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Author Topic: Handmade steam engines.... on a budget (Read 52755 times)