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[ModmanMax]

This is my new engine for the Midwest Fantail Launch. All the reviews I have seen on this model have said it is an under powered model.
I think this will make it get up and go.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG8Cmawh6Q8&feature=share&list=UU3JEIAwzSpCMfyNlxSYmYJA

[tobyker]

Will the boiler produce steam fast enough, and for long enough to give a respectable  run?

[ooyah/2]

Toby ,

Good question, I would doubt it.

Max,
Never !! Never !! use plastic pipe on your gas line, if that comes off when you are operating the plant you will have a major fire on your hands.
Hard copper pipe the line to your burner  or use proper rubber gas approved pipe with crimped clamps on both ends of the line.

George.

[ModmanMax]

I'm getting about 10minutes on the bench which is not great but will do the job. It may be a bit longer with a load.  If the run times are unsatisfactory I have larger boilers but space may be a problem in the Fantail plus I wanted to see how the midwest boiler performs. The gas is turned way down for the video so for sailing there is plenty more left to keep up the pressure.

The tube is silicon fuel line and for bench testing is ok. The final set up will have a small refillable tank with copper tube all the way.

[ooyah/2]

Max,
Please take my advice, it's a terrifying thing if that tube comes off and you have an L.P.G.fire.

Trust me I've been there.

George.

[ModmanMax]

Max,
Please take my advice, it's a terrifying thing if that tube comes off and you have an L.P.G.fire.

Trust me I've been there.

George.

The gas is low pressure butane mix, you are right I would never do this with LPG gas which is mostly propane at a much higher pressure.

[ooyah/2]

The gas is low pressure butane mix, you are right I would never do this with LPG gas which is mostly propane at a much higher pressure.

Max
I don't think that we are on the same wave length, in the U.K.  Butane is L.P.G. ( Liquid Petroleum Gas )
The gas tanks have a working pressure of 185 P.S.I. and is slightly lower in pressure than Propane.
For insurance purposes in the U.K.  Propane is not allowed in model use and as the Regs in Oz are greater than here I can only assume that Propane will be banned there.

I can't stress how dangerous it is using plastic tubing on your gas line, I only comment on this as I have been working with and building boilers of very high and low pressures for many years, firing them with all sorts of fuel, L.P.G. Petrol and Paraffin and the most volatile is L.P.G. if that tube comes off when you are firing your boiler you will have a flame thrower in your hands, so please take my advice and don't do it.

George.

[ModmanMax]

There is a lot of misconceptions with steam models and safety.
I am not having a shot at you but so everyone looking in is clear.

Butane is a gas with the formula C4H10.
Propane is a gas with the formula C3H8
Ethane is a gas with the formula C2H6
Methane is a gas with the formula CH4

Each has a different boiling point at sea level. The larger Butane gas has a higher boiling point than the rest and therefore needs a lower pressure to keep it liquid in a container.
At 20 Degrees C Butane is liquid at 32 PSI
At 55 Degrees C Propane is liquid at 320PSI ( wikipedia )

LPG ( Liquid Petroleum Gas) is a by product of refining petrol from crude oil and usually is a cocktail of gases mainly Propane and Butane so you are correct in saying it may be different in the UK.

The gas I am using is camp stove fuel with the following:
44%Butane 29% Iso-Butane 27% Propane and it comes in a container similar to a pressure pack paint can. I am not certain of the pressure but it is nowhere near 185PSI.
My barbeque uses LPG gas which is refilled at the petrol station and is in a heavy steel container and I don't know the exact composition but I believe it is mostly Propane and a much higher pressure.

In any case all these gases are highly flammable and should be treated with caution. These gases are heavier than air and can settle on the floor of a shed or in the hull of a boat and if you work in a cellar I wouldn't use it at all since it can also displace the air . So lots of ventilation is a must.

And as suggested don't use anything other than metal gas lines. Professionally made burners are available from Forrest Classics http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/    I can highly recommend them.

[ooyah/2]

Max,
 
 Glad to hear that you are not having a shot at me, I never considered that you were , this forum as I know it isn't for creating controversial discussions but for sharing ideas and knowledge  so that new comers to the steam hobby can learn safe operation of steam plants.
 
 What I discovered many years ago when I tried to use Silicone tubing for a burner line was that the heat from the burner traveled up the copper pipe to the Silicone tube which expanded and came off, you can guess the outcome, fortunately the fire was dowsed with no great harm.
 
 Now you do say that you only do this for test purposes, I notice from your I.D. that you have a hobby shop, say a new comer  uses Silicone tube on a gas line and has a bad accident, gets badly burned, may even burn his house down and on questioning says "Oh I saw this done by Max at Classic Hobbies" how would you feel, possibly Max you may not have any remorse but if it was me I would.
 
 As you say on closing that gas lines and fittings are available from Forest Classics but none are sold with Silicone tube connections, only hard piped to the burner.
 
 I still strongly suggest that Silicone tube for gas lines should never be used ,if a flexable connection is required use a properly attested rubber pipe to a British Standard ,if in the U.K. ,  or to that in which country you live ,similar to that used on B.B.Q. fires.  or am I the only one that feels this way.

George.
 

[ModmanMax]

Having said all that the reality is this setup worked just fine for me because I checked to make sure the things mentioned would not happen. It's what used to be called common sense.
I Remeber connecting a rubber hose to a Bunsen burner at school in the 70s and that worked just fine.
Do I sue the education department because they gave me the idea?


I don't sell or promote this setup  and the purpose of the video is for entertainment not technical instruction.

While on the subject of safety you will note Midwest do not supply a safety valve with their boiler.
As far as I know no one has been hurt or tried to sue them yet.
In fact I have never been able to find a documented case of someone being hurt while running a model or toy steam engine. Even in the YouTube video 'Jim's exploding Steam engine' even though it was reckless and very stupid no one actually got hurt.


Every now and then someone will raise safety concerns about steam models and toys, the reality is they are quite safe compared to many other pursuits. Lipo batteries bursting into flames comes to mind not to mention all the other crazy things people do these days.

[vnkiwi]

Yes, Midwest kits don't contain a safety valve, however their pre-built boilers do. Its built into the filler cap   
cheers
vnkiwi

[pettyofficernick]

I agree with George, silicone tubing used to make LPG connections is irresponsible and dangerous, copper pipe with screwed coned connection is the only safe way to connect a gas tank to a burner. Cheddar Models used to supply their engines with a flexible gas safe rubber hose with the proper crimped pipe clips to secure it to the fittings. Even this method was eventually abandoned in favor of copper pipe. I would imagine if anyone in the UK turned up at the lake with a bit of silicone tube joining the gas pipe they would not be allowed to run their engine. Any gas derived from petroleum is an LPG, weather it be butane, propane, ethane or methane. Lipo batteries do not burst into flames if they are used properly and the instructions followed, this problem occurs when you attempt to charge them when they have been allowed to discharge below 3V, according to the guidelines from Component Shop here in the UK.
Regards,
Nick.

[ModmanMax]

I agree with George, silicone tubing used to make LPG connections is irresponsible and dangerous, copper pipe with screwed coned connection is the only safe way to connect a gas tank to a burner. Cheddar Models used to supply their engines with a flexible gas safe rubber hose with the proper crimped pipe clips to secure it to the fittings. Even this method was eventually abandoned in favor of copper pipe. I would imagine if anyone in the UK turned up at the lake with a bit of silicone tube joining the gas pipe they would not be allowed to run their engine. Any gas derived from petroleum is an LPG, weather it be butane, propane, ethane or methane. Lipo batteries do not burst into flames if they are used properly and the instructions followed, this problem occurs when you attempt to charge them when they have been allowed to discharge below 3V, according to the guidelines from Component Shop here in the UK.
Regards,
Nick.

I agree 100% don't use silicon hose to make gas connections. Mamod have also stopped using plastic hose.

Of course Lipos do not burst into flames if used properly and neither do steam engines.

However the installation in the video works quite well and is quite safe as a bench test for my purposes.
I am not asking anyone to take responsibility for my actions and I am not going to blame someone else if I stuff up.

[vnkiwi]

Never the less, by showing the video with this setup (the plastic hose), a newbee could see this and assume its the way its done. Yeah I know, they should know better, but newbee's being newbee's by definition, don't know better. 
Therefore, you are responsible if it all goes bad in their setup, dispite your disclaimer way down the thread.
Would be better to delete the video, and show - the proper way to do it - even if its not your usual way. Don't show the wrong way, because some idiot WILL see it AND do it. Natural selection kicks in. 
Anyway, be responsible and please show how it should be done. 
just my two bob's worth
cheers
vnkiwi

[pettyofficernick]

Max, the main problem here is not what you have done for your own purposes, but that you have posted a photo of a potentially dangerous installation that may be viewed by a newcomer to model steam, who may then go and do the same. However,   the dangers have been pointed out and made clear, so hopefully all is now well.
Happy (safe) steaming,
Nick.

[ooyah/2]

Thanks Guys,
I am pleased to hear that I am not alone in my concern for using Silicone tube on gas lines.
We all do things in our workshops that are not quite kosher, I am inclined to do just such things with some of the Flash Steam projects that I have been involved in, but don't advocate that they are safe nor would I publish them for the very reason P.O.Nick has said..

Yes Max it's very difficult to find a case of toy boiler accidents and the Vid of Jim's exploding boiler, although thankfully nobody was hurt, there is always a first time and in my opinion it was totally irresponsible that the Vid was published and it's this sort of thing that gets our hobby a bad name.

George.

[tobyker]

Well, absolutely chaps but what we want to know is how the fantail goes with the twin engine.

[ModmanMax]

Thanks Guys,
I am pleased to hear that I am not alone in my concern for using Silicone tube on gas lines.
We all do things in our workshops that are not quite kosher, I am inclined to do just such things with some of the Flash Steam projects that I have been involved in, but don't advocate that they are safe nor would I publish them for the very reason P.O.Nick has said..

Yes Max it's very difficult to find a case of toy boiler accidents and the Vid of Jim's exploding boiler, although thankfully nobody was hurt, there is always a first time and in my opinion it was totally irresponsible that the Vid was published and it's this sort of thing that gets our hobby a bad name.

George.

We can endlessly dream up scenarios of disasters.
If you are going to dream up such scenarios back it with some evidence.
So far the only evidence is my test set up works just fine.
What gives the hobby a bad name is scaremongering.
It is probably why parents don't buy their kids steam toys anymore.

Back to the point of the thread,
I tried the engine for fit into the Fantail and with some manipulation will work just fine.
I will get some photos soon.

[MickK]

Hi Modman,
I tend to agree with all the above comments,
Getting back to the original question, looking at the actual steam engine, it's two oscillators connected together.
The connection between the two engines seems to be the (possible) weak link in the whole project!
Where did you get the engines from?
I'm using a TVR1A in my boat, and from my (LIMITED) experience, the boiler looks a bit small to get a reaonable run-time.
Looking foward to see the photos and results.
Mick
 

[ModmanMax]

Here is the Midwest twin mounted in the Midwest Fantail. I will make a video shortly.

[dave301bounty]

That,s neat .

[Henk Goosen]

Looks fantastic!!

[derekwarner]

Hullo Max........I am not entering the comment or question of gas line silicone tubing...and have watched the Video.........but what about internal steam oil lubrication for the engine?........Derek

[ModmanMax]

Here is the video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf0-zVtu4rA&feature=share&list=UU3JEIAwzSpCMfyNlxSYmYJA

[ModmanMax]

Hullo Max........I am not entering the comment or question of gas line silicone tubing...and have watched the Video.........but what about internal steam oil lubrication for the engine?........Derek

I am afraid the nanny police have distracted from the point of the thread.



Just splash lubrication. I dont expect to run this thing into the ground. A few drops of oil around the place and a few drops in the exhaust while turning it backwards is all I do. I have a 38 year old MM2 mamod I have run a lot over that time and there is not much wear.