Topic: New Boiler regs (Read 14031 times)

Circlip · « **on:** April 29, 2013, 09:41:36 am »

Saw this on another forum :-

14.1 For the purposes of this Test Code ‘small boilers’ are defined as
those with a pressure-volume product below 3 bar litres.
Examination and test of this type of boiler is applicable if the boiler
is fitted with (as a minimum requirement) a safety valve and a
pressure gauge. The boiler may also be fitted with a water level
gauge and a mechanical method of pumping water in to the boiler
whilst under working pressure. If no means of supplying water to
the boiler whilst working is present the fuel supply shall be so
arranged that it is used up before the water is completely used.

This means that as from 1st Jan this year that no longer will Mamod, Wilesco and Saito boiler owners be able to fly "Under the wire" due to the old low volume/pressure ratings when operating publicly without a valid test certificate.

Regards Ian.

Don't be fooled into thinking "If fitted or Applicable" would carry much weight if litigation is used. It's another way for an insurance company to engage maximum reverse gear.

Jerry C · « **Reply #1 on:** April 29, 2013, 10:26:29 am »

Ian, is there something missing here? What if the boiler is not fitted with safety valve, pressure gauge and sight glass? What is the reference for this? Is it a regulation, law or code?
Jerry.

derekwarner · « **Reply #2 on:** April 29, 2013, 11:35:22 am »

Guys....why not read the more direct text version..........courtesy of a certain few competent members on an alternate WEB site.......

....the implications ...even when they filter down to OZ could certainly cloud our hobby.......

....Derek

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1817.0;attach=4993

Sorry Derek but we can't see the above if we are not members. ken

gondolier88 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 29, 2013, 05:41:44 pm »

As I see it this is a document written by the Model Engineering Liaison Group, for direction to members of clubs/societies for display of boilers under steam pressure.

For boilers below 3BarLitre the examination would be done at the factory by the manufacturer, or by the club/society upon the owner becoming a member of the club/society, with the test being for life for boilers of 3BarLitre or less.

For owners who show their boilers of 3BarLitres or less in public, and who aren't members of clubs/societies, then the directive does not apply, and good practice would of still stand.

Unless there is a amendment to the PSSR 2000 regulations, then for owners of small boilered plants, nothing has changed, unless you are a member of a model engineering society/club that falls under the directive from the Model Engineering Liaison Group.

Greg

Jerry C · « **Reply #4 on:** April 29, 2013, 06:32:06 pm »

Hi Greg, so it's a code and not a law? Written by club members not parliament? My insurers (house & contents) happy to give £5 million public liability cover for model steamboats. It only seems to be club people effected. My boiler and gas tank certificates have no expiry date or timespan mentioned and the guy that makes em says they don't need retesting.
Jerry.

Circlip · « **Reply #5 on:** April 29, 2013, 07:52:17 pm »

Hi Guys,

There has been some major changes to the UK boiler regulations and there is now NO EXCLUSION for boilers of 3 Bar-Litre or under.

I attach a copy of the latest UK rules which became effective on 1st January 2013.[/u][/b]

Unfortunately it now means ALL boilers used in public must now have a valid test certificate... which can only be issued via a club or a recognised commercial manufacturer.

Some insurance companies do have a recognised tester on their books so that may be of some use.

Sorry to post bad news.

Best regards.

SandyC.

EDIT: These new rules are freely available for download on the internet so there is no copyright issue here.

2012_Test_Code_V12a.pdf (115.4 KB, 34 views

Hopefully the PDF link on this one works Derek. Yes, it is a CODE and not law, but anyone attending one of the steam regattas advertised on this site may not be able to float their boats if the plant doesn't comply.Since even the lowly Mamod boiler is fitted with a safety valve, it would be pointless trying to argue the code doesn't apply,

I like to think that all members who float toy boats with fires inside them are competent Derek but unfortunately Numpties still abound.

Regards Ian

TheLongBuild · « **Reply #6 on:** April 29, 2013, 10:07:06 pm »

25 pages of Woffle IMHOP

gondolier88 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 29, 2013, 11:13:33 pm »

Ian,

Anyone who exhibits an insured boiler will have to satisfy the insurers that the plant is safe to operate in public, and will ask for proof of competence should an emergency occur, for which a manufacturer's test certificate is sufficient.

For boilers of less than 3BarLitre, under UK Law they do not require insuring, or a valid test certificate to appear in public, which,of course, means that should an emergency occur them the owner is entirely liable- meaning that in reality the majority of Mamod owners operate them in the back garden etc. where if fingers get burnt it's through curiosity and not accident.

The code of practice that has been written by the Model Engineering Liaison Group (MELG) is for members to comply with if requiring insurance to appear in public at MELG attended events. This practice spans most organisations, including the Traction Engine Trust and The Steamboat Association to mention but two. In order for members of those groups to appear in public as members of those groups they must adhere to their membership declaration, which will stipulate that they must adhere to their particular group's code of practice. This means that as a member you are provided with the appropriate services for free, or reasonable cost, to make sure you are compliant. This means that members have no excuse, and to attend events must be insured, and to be insured you must have valid test tickets. It also means that the groups/association/club/society that is responsible for their member's compliance have no liability as they have taken all reasonable action to make sure that members comply with their particular code of practice.

Joe public, who takes his Mamod to the local pub does not require insurance or a valid boiler ticket, unless he is exhibiting his Mamod as a representative and/or member of one of the model engineering societies that is part of the MELG, in which case he would be contravening his own membership declaration and would void any membership benefits, including liability, should an accident occur.

THE ONLY WAY THIS WILL AFFECT ANY MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM IS IF YOU ARE A MEMBER OF A MODEL ENGINEERING SOCIETY WHICH IS IN TURN A MEMBER OF THE M.E.L.G.

THE ONLY WAY THIS WILL AFFECT MEMBERS OF THE FORUM WHO AREN'T MEMBERS OF RELEVANT MODEL ENGINEERING CLUBS, IS IF AN AMENDMENT IS MADE TO UK LAW, IN THIS CASE THE P.S.S.R. 2000 LEGISLATION, WHICH REPLACED THE OLD PRESSURE EQUIPMENT DIRECTIVE IN 2000.

TheLongBuild · « **Reply #8 on:** April 30, 2013, 12:02:21 am »

1 page which makes it a bit clearer

derekwarner · « **Reply #9 on:** April 30, 2013, 12:37:56 am »

Just a little more light reading...........Australia does seem to follow the British rules & regulations......so with this near instant world of communication.....wouldn't be surprised to see the same changes here very soon.................Derek
http://www.normodeng.org.uk/boiler_testing_2013.htm

Circlip · « **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2013, 07:20:41 am »

The post was created to inform those whom it might affect, that section 14 (Small Boilers) has been included and is effective from 1st Jan 2013.
Whether the complete plant can be operated safely by the owner is another argument altogether but in the event of being told to take your boat off the local pond by a council jobsworth, being able to waft a bit of paper under their nose validating the test safety of the bit that most would regard as the dangerous part of an installation can only assist.
If it doesn't, or you think it doesn't, or you don't care whether it affects you, fine but whatever weapons we can use in our armoury to prove to the great unwashed and unknowing that some of us take our playtimes responsibly it can only be to the greater good.

Waters that allow I/C powered toy boats are few and far between, I wonder why? It only took a few with the "My toys engine makes a lot of noise -- get over it" attitude to screw it for the many, can't see the screaming electrics being allowed to carry on with impunity.

Don't forget, when adding bits of "Bling" to an existing or New plant, you may be "modifying" the system - how many have fallen foul of insurance companies with car conversions?
Think, act or ignore, it's your own choice.

Regards Ian.

TheLongBuild · « **Reply #11 on:** April 30, 2013, 01:53:55 pm »

As far as I can see nothing has really changed for the Modeen Boiler I have.

It is classed as a small boiler, it only has a safety valve. I assume from the text that I do not have to have a pressure guage fitted. The fuel burner will run out well before the boiler is empty (As long as filled correctly. (Talking of which what is the recomended fill level of a boiler, I allways do about 75%).
I have in the past had it regulary tested at the Kirklees show each year, however for the past 2 have not been able to make it.

Personally if I have not used it for a while I will fire it up to check that the safety valve works, and that it is not damaged.

gondolier88 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 30, 2013, 06:21:25 pm »

"Don't forget, when adding bits of "Bling" to an existing or New plant, you may be "modifying" the system - how many have fallen foul of insurance companies with car conversions?
Think, act or ignore, it's your own choice."

Insurance companies insure a car based on risk, and insure the entire vehicle. Steam insurance policies are to insure a pressure vessel only, associated pipework and fittings, as long as they perform safely within their working limits and perform the duty they are designed to do to the same or better level than OEM, then insurers are happy as they do not compromise the pressure vessel. Insurance companies do not insure the 'system' as you put it, but only provide cover to the pressure vessel if proof that ancilliary systems that maintain the plant's safety are in good working order- basically, water supply, safety valve operation and pressure gauge accuracy.

If it was proven that modifications did not fall into the above standard, and an accident happened, then yes, there would be a problem with liability.

As an engineer who works with steam on a daily basis, and responsible organiser of a public regatta I'm well aware of liabilities and what is important and what isn't- the document above may be a well written code of practice that we would all do well to follow, but the fact of the matter is that anyone who can prove their plant is safe- ie. boiler cert., and is insured to a good enough standard- then they can display their boiler under steam in public. However, if their boiler is under 3BarLitres, then as unwise at it may be, they do not need insurance or a boiler certificate, to be within the remit if the law in the UK, if they wish to exhibit their plant in public.

As a regatta organiser I do specify that any steam boiler on public display as part of the regatta must have insurance, and if above 3BarLitres, a valid boiler certicate- this year boilers range from horizontal boilers that would fit in your hand, to loco boilers that hold around 200gal, with everything inbetween.

Greg

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2013, 11:51:09 pm »

Quote from: Jerry C on April 29, 2013, 06:32:06 pm

Hi Greg, so it's a code and not a law? Written by club members not parliament? My insurers (house & contents) happy to give £5 million public liability cover for model steamboats. It only seems to be club people effected. My boiler and gas tank certificates have no expiry date or timespan mentioned and the guy that makes em says they don't need retesting.
Jerry.

Jerry,
Don't forget that although you have a hydraulic test for the life of the boiler under the new Regs you will require a steam test at ( 1.5 x working pressure )and every 12 months thereafter. (Small boiler code 14.6 )

Also if you read on page 1- off the new Regs Introduction item 1.5 which reads

This document has been agreed and approved by the principle provider of insurance to the modelengineering hobby.
Individuals or orginisations seeking insurance from other insurers need to check that the requirements herein are acceptable to their insurer.

So I would think that if you are intending to go to any shows that are using this code you would need some sort of certification or other from your home insurers to satisfy any show organizer that you were insured.

It would be a great shame if you intended to travel some distance to a show or regatta and be refused the opportunity to sail S.L.WEIR. if you arrived without some sort of proof.

George.

Jerry C · « **Reply #14 on:** May 03, 2013, 02:51:54 pm »

Hi again George. Ref the steam test at 1.5 x wp.. How is that actually done? Is the boiler placed in some kind of protected area/enclosure, as if the test failed couldn't there be an explosion?
Jerry.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 03, 2013, 06:24:36 pm »

Quote from: Jerry C on May 03, 2013, 02:51:54 pm

Hi again George. Ref the steam test at 1.5 x wp.. How is that actually done? Is the boiler placed in some kind of protected area/enclosure, as if the test failed couldn't there be an explosion?
Jerry.

Hi JERRY,
Here is the link to download a copy of the new boiler regs ( 2012_Test_Code_V12a.pdf ) put plenty of paper in your printer, there's 25 pages.

A steam test is done after the boiler has been certified after it's Hydraulic test of 2 x wP. and is done with all the boiler fittings on with the steam delivery valve closed to check the integrity of the fittings.

If you down load the boiler regs look at 14.6 for SMALL BOILERS where it gives the test procedure.

There is no need to have the boiler in a protected area as you already have a Hydraulic test of 2 x wP certificate for your boiler but one is useless without the other.
In the boiler regs it states who are the main insurers for model boilers in the engineeringhobby.

There absolutely no chance of a boiler explosion during a steam test at 1.5 x wP, the worst that can happen is a steam leak from a fitting, if somebody has been telling you that there could be an explosion they're winding you up or they have no experience of steam testing a boiler.

In all my years in building and testing model boilers I have never heard of one exploding other than the You-Tube one of the young scientist in the South Atlantic who seamed to think that the boiler bursting was a great laugh.

Since my last post I have had a conversation with an insurance assessor who has never heard of his or any other insurance company who would cover a model boiler under steam in house insurance, so possibly it would do no harm to check that yours does and have some written proof to present to an orginisers appointed tester.

I posted to you to save the possibility of you traveling some distance to a show or regatta and being refused to steam and sail your model without the appropriate documentation.

Are you a member of a club that sails on Lynn Padarn that abide by the Test Code or are you just a bunch of guys that sail on that water ?

Hope that this helps

George.

Jerry C · « **Reply #16 on:** May 03, 2013, 06:48:26 pm »

Thanks for that George. I wasn't sure about the 1.5x test. 2x test is hydraulic and cold whereas 1.5x test is hot. It all makes sense if its just to test the fittings. Nobody told me any had exploded but if something did go wrong then under hydraulic pressure there can't be an explosion but under steam at 90 psi it could. I've already arranged with the Coniston people re insurance and testing and they are happy. My insurance is with Lloyds Bank and its a plain English schedule. It says under "What is NOT covered":- cars, boats and aircraft, UNLESS they are models. I called them and they put me in touch with one of the Underwriters and he said if it says model boat it's covered, steam or otherwise.
The guys who sail on Llyn Padarn are people who don't want to be in clubs for whatever reasons. We use a public slipway and the only enemy is the parking meter and his handler. The only rule is the one that says I have to bring the doughnuts for lunch! 5 for a quid fresh from the Spar in llanberis.
Jerry.

Jerry C · « **Reply #17 on:** May 03, 2013, 06:58:13 pm »

George, I've just read that PDF file and realise the 1.5x test is hydraulic and not steam. The steam test is later at Pw + 10% . I wondered how they could steam at 1.5x without holding the safety v/v down!!
Thanks again
Jerry.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 03, 2013, 07:20:54 pm »

Quote from: Jerry C on May 03, 2013, 06:58:13 pm

George, I've just read that PDF file and realise the 1.5x test is hydraulic and not steam. The steam test is later at Pw + 10% . I wondered how they could steam at 1.5x without holding the safety v/v down!!
Thanks again
Jerry.

Hi Jerry,
I think that you should have another read at the Regs,
The 1.5 x wP is most definitely the steam test and 2 x wP is Hydraulic.

The 10% is the max that is allowed for the gauge to show above the wP on the pressure gauge with the burner full on and the safety blowing.

If the working pressure is say 50 p.s.i. the 10% is all that is allowed for the needle on the gauge to be above 50 p.s.i. when the burner is full on and a red line should be drawn on the gauge face to show the max 10% increase.and a red line should be marked on the gauge face to show the max allowed.

It is recommended that pressure gauges should be twice the working pressure to allow the 1.5 x wP test to show.

The Regs explain it better than I can but hopefully you can see where I am coming from

George.

Jerry C · « **Reply #19 on:** May 03, 2013, 07:40:45 pm »

George, that's not how I read it. I copied and paste para 14.3:-

14.3 The boiler shall be subjected to an initial hydraulic shell pressure test of TWICE working pressure (2 x PW) and is valid for the life of the boiler. A repeat hydraulic pressure test shall be conducted after the appropriate working components have been attached to the boiler shell to prove the pressure and structural integrity for the interface of the boiler fittings. This includes the pressure gauge. The applied pressure shall be ONE and ONE HALF times working pressure (1.5 x PW). The test method is as described in Section 10 of this Test Code.

Then the rest:-

14.6 A visual examination of the pressure system pipe work shall be conducted. The pressure gauge shall be checked for accuracy against the calibrated test gauge, particularly the red line, prior to conducting the steam test. The steam test shall be carried out immediately after the first hydraulic test (1.5 x PW) and every 12 months thereafter. The boiler shall be steamed at the maximum firing rate of the fuel. The test shall be continued for sufficient time as to allow the inspector to be satisfied that stable conditions have been attained. The operation of the safety valve(s) shall be checked to make certain that they operate at the working pressure of the boiler (PW) (see paragraph 3.5) and that the pressure does not rise by more than 10% of the working pressure (PW + 10%) during safety valve operation (limit pressure PL). If fitted, the correct operation of the water level gauge and the boiler water feed pump shall be verified.

If you insert of between hydraulic test (of) 1.5 x PW it makes more sense.

I read the last bit to say boiler is steamed at Pw and that as you say the pressure should not rise more than 10% after the safety lifts.

If the safety valve should not be adjusted, how do they make the the boiler steam at 1.5x Pw?

I'm not trying to be funny but that's how I read it.

Jerry.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 03, 2013, 08:17:10 pm »

Quote from: Jerry C on May 03, 2013, 07:40:45 pm

George, that's not how I read it. I copied and paste para 14.3:-

14.3 The boiler shall be subjected to an initial hydraulic shell pressure test of TWICE working pressure (2 x PW) and is valid for the life of the boiler. A repeat hydraulic pressure test shall be conducted after the appropriate working components have been attached to the boiler shell to prove the pressure and structural integrity for the interface of the boiler fittings. This includes the pressure gauge. The applied pressure shall be ONE and ONE HALF times working pressure (1.5 x PW). The test method is as described in Section 10 of this Test Code.

Then the rest:-

14.6 A visual examination of the pressure system pipe work shall be conducted. The pressure gauge shall be checked for accuracy against the calibrated test gauge, particularly the red line, prior to conducting the steam test. The steam test shall be carried out immediately after the first hydraulic test (1.5 x PW) and every 12 months thereafter. The boiler shall be steamed at the maximum firing rate of the fuel. The test shall be continued for sufficient time as to allow the inspector to be satisfied that stable conditions have been attained. The operation of the safety valve(s) shall be checked to make certain that they operate at the working pressure of the boiler (PW) (see paragraph 3.5) and that the pressure does not rise by more than 10% of the working pressure (PW + 10%) during safety valve operation (limit pressure PL). If fitted, the correct operation of the water level gauge and the boiler water feed pump shall be verified.

If you insert of between hydraulic test (of) 1.5 x PW it makes more sense.

I read the last bit to say boiler is steamed at Pw and that as you say the pressure should not rise more than 10% after the safety lifts.

If the safety valve should not be adjusted, how do they make the the boiler steam at 1.5x Pw?

I'm not trying to be funny but that's how I read it.

Jerry.

Hi Jerry,
I know you are not trying to be funny but here is how I steam test after initial Hydraulic and then every year after.

For the 1.5 x wP test I set the safety to 1.5 x wP and then reset it back to the original wP value, it's the only way that I read it and can do it and as the appointed inspector. have the authority to do so.

I do agree with you that in 14.1 there is a bit of ambiguity there as the first Hydraulic should read 2 x wP and I have always understood that test thereafter was 1.5 x wP every 2 years , then it was 4 and now as long as it's 3 bar litre or under it's for the boilers life

I feel that the people who made up the Regs have not spent too much time on small model steam boilers and most of their thoughts are on Locos which as you know can work at quite high pressures.

Jerry,
Just had another read at your post of 6.48 pm.
Just a query on the underwriters statement that " model boats, steam or other wise" its not the model boat that requires insurance but the "model boiler and associated steam fittings "

If you have cleared it with the Coniston organizers without a full test certification that's O.K. but must say that I am more than surprised.

I do envy you and your mates that are not an organized club which takes you out of all these boiler Regs and you are free to sail as you please but keep it under your hat in case some Jobs worth in Llanberis may take it upon himself to regulate you.

George.

Jerry C · « **Reply #21 on:** May 03, 2013, 08:43:30 pm »

The lake is full of jobsworths who have tried!!
Jerry.

john s 2 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 03, 2013, 09:59:32 pm »

Can anyone please clarify exactly what is a Tester? It appears to me that there is no approved course and certification. Merely a compotive person. So whats wrong in myself testing? If not so where do i become credited? It does seem anyone can label themselves a tester. I hope that i will be corrected. John.

gondolier88 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2013, 10:09:14 pm »

Boiler testing, at any size, is a standard procedure- and for that matter a standard procedure for any pressure system.

1- Manufacturer test on construction completion, bare shell only, hydraulic test to twice working pressure.

2- Steam test to full working pressure with water gauges and safety valve attached, with full firing rate the safety valves should contain the pressure to a maximum of working pressure+10%.

3- In full size, to satisfy insurers, a boiler test is taken in it's working situation, and water supplies are checked, as are pressure gauge, SV's and water gauges to check for safe operation of all systems- although in model sizes this would occur in the club situation, or prior to an event where club insurance is not applicable.

4- For consecutive tests a hydro test to 1.5 x working pressure is standard across industry- as well as now being standard for clubs wanting to hydro test a boiler for insurance purposes, and would be done before step 3.

5- After consecutive hydro tests steps 2 and 3 are repeated each time.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD A BOILER EVER BE SUBJECTED TO 1.5 X WORKING STEAM PRESSURE UNDER STEAM, THIS WOULD REQUIRE MANIPULATING THE SAFETY VALVES TO MALFUNCTION PURPOSEFULLY, AND IN SETTING THEM LOWER BACK TO WORKING PRESSURE YOU HAVE VOIDED YOUR TEST CONDITIONS.

Any test equal to or above working pressure are done using hydraulic testing, and steam testing never occurs at more than WP+10%.

Jerry will be covered at Coniston, more than adequately, by his house insurers. Upon satisfactorily proving his plant is safe (step 3) then the organisers are happy that the plant is safe, operated competently and already have proof of insurance.

Greg

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 04, 2013, 06:32:42 am »

Quote from: john s 2 on May 03, 2013, 09:59:32 pm

Can anyone please clarify exactly what is a Tester? It appears to me that there is no approved course and certification. Merely a compotive person. So whats wrong in myself testing? If not so where do i become credited? It does seem anyone can label themselves a tester. I hope that i will be corrected. John.

John,
Have a read at Section 3 ( 3.9 ), there is a full explanation of who a Tester ( Inspector ) should be .
George.

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Author Topic: New Boiler regs (Read 14031 times)