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Author Topic: Titanic problem!  (Read 6710 times)

Corposant

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Titanic problem!
« on: May 21, 2013, 08:20:25 pm »

A test “sailing” of my part built Northlight puffer has revealed a complete lack of steering when going astern. All positions of the rudder result in a turn to starboard!



I think I know the reason but that doesn’t help me to know what to do about it!

Mike
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Shipmate60

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2013, 08:49:30 pm »

Not much you can do about it the real vessels had the same problem along with a lot of other single screw vessels.
A huge clear plastic rudder would help!!
 
Bob
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Corposant

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2013, 09:07:18 pm »

Bob

I'm not sure if you've cheered me up or depressed me! At least you've provided a potential solution - so many thanks for that.

Having seen a number of model puffers in action, I'm now wondering if they all had large plastic rudders when on the water!

Mike
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Shipmate60

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2013, 09:14:57 pm »

Mike,
Any rudder will only work with a waterflow over it, when going astern there is very little flow over the rudder as the prop is forcing the water foreward away from the rudder.
 
Bob
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Corposant

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2013, 09:57:34 pm »

Bob

Yes, I appreciated the reason as soon as I saw it. I had expected reduced control going astern - but not none at all! Having witnessed Brian Chingdevil launch his Sealight (also 1:32) without showing the problem, you'll understand my disappointment.

My main problem is that I'm a complete novice, having never operated a radio controlled boat in my life - and at 73, it's a bit late to start now!

Mike
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Tug-Kenny RIP

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2013, 10:01:10 pm »


Mind you, the bath didn't help.  Not much chance to get underway.

Try it on the lake with an improved rudder as mentioned.

Cheers

Ken

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Corposant

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2013, 10:09:01 pm »

Thanks Ken. It's tempting to take it to Wicksteed - but perhaps a bit too embarrassing!

Mike
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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2013, 10:29:29 pm »


You've obviously not seen one of my boats!!

.... bring it, we'll get it sorted.   :-))

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Stavros

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2013, 10:30:52 pm »

DONT  be DAFT bring it along
 
 
Dave
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grendel

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2013, 10:40:09 pm »

one of the things they teach you when hiring a boat on the broads is that you dont have any steering in reverse. steering is achieved by blipping a quick burst of forward, with the rudder held in the appropriate setting, this kicks the back end of the boat round, until it is pointing where you want, then reverse is again selected, any corrections made with short blips of forward.
Grendel
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rickles23

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2013, 10:42:26 am »

Hi,
 
We have the same problem with a full size historic trawler when we have to get her out of a tight spot and can only go astern.
 
All props will 'walk' and this is what you work with.
 
OK lesson time:
 
 The bottom half of a revolving propeller works in water that is slightly denser than that affecting its top half, so the tendency is for the entire propeller to move side-ways—as if it were a wheel on a road taking the stern with it. The larger the propeller, the greater is the effect.When a boat is moving forward, this sideways walk is easily corrected by turning the rudder a little in the opposite direction; however, when you’re in astern gear, strange things can happen. Some boats handle beautifully under power in reverse, but a great many are totally unpredictable.In theory, a right-handed propeller working in astern gear will walk the stern over to port—that is, to your right as you face aft.   Here ends the lesson. 
You might need a larger body of water than the bathtub to avoid the water bouncing back from the sides. Also as with our trawler you will need to go slowly and carefully.
 
Regards
 
 
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Jerry C

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2013, 11:22:31 am »

Tickles and Grendel are both quite correct effectively in what they say. There is another reason why single screw vessels are difficult to steer when going astern and that is because as soon as a vessel starts to move astern through the water the point around which the steering forces act moves right astern to the aft perpendicular. This causes the forces t move the vessel bodily sideways as there is now no lever to cause the vessel to turn. Any turning effect by say wind is now magnified. This is why vessels which regularly have to steam astern such as the Royal Daffodil and Royal Sovereign on the Thames are fitted with bow rudders. Good technique when making a stern board is to set rudder amidships, give short sharp kick astern until vessel moves astern then stop engine and correct any deviation in heading with rudder and kick ahead then keep repeating the process.  As astern speed increases the rudder may start to have some effect but don't hold out much hope. Even twin screw vessels have similar problems. The only boats I have driven which steer well astern were Damen Shoalbusters but only at very high speed however we never drove them slowly! Hope this helps.   
Jerry.

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2013, 11:40:44 am »

my little Northlight was exactly the same............no reverse steering at all.....you learn to live with the fun and laughter it causes at regattas..............if you wanted one for regatta work you picked the wrong boat, lol..........

they have bags of character when sailing both fore and reverse, so long as you can live with the comments that other modellers make when steering, lol.

don't spoil it by putting a big plastic rudder on........it would loose all the character of the real ship.
 
neil.
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Netleyned

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2013, 11:50:08 am »

don't spoil it by putting a big plastic rudder on........it would loose all the character of the real ship.

And have minimal effect on the Handling when making a sternboard. >>:-( >>:-(




Ned
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rickles23

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2013, 03:06:48 pm »

Hi all,
 
I have found that twin props make it easier to steer when going astern!
 
Just use the throttle to balance the direction and use the rudder for fine tuning.
 
With twin Kort nozzles on some ships we locked one straight ahead and used the other for course corrections when on a long voyage.
 
The problem with model boats is that everything is to a scale EXCEPT the water.
 
Regards
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Corposant

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2013, 10:01:17 pm »

Hi Guys,
      I must apologise for the delayed response - just got back from a visit to Exbury Gardens (spectacular Rhododendrons & Azaleas) and visiting a relative.

Grendel,
      It seems I shall have to practise my short blips! (I’m already having trouble with starting the hoist when operating the rudder and hitting the throttle when raising/lowering the boom!!) Many thanks for sharing your experience.

Rickles,
     It’s comforting to know that full sized vessels have the same problem - and thanks for the lesson - duly noted and inwardly digested!

Jerry,
         Many thanks for your contribution. It seems I have three options: Modify the model in an unrealistic way, learn some tricky jiggery-pokery with the control sticks or live with the problem! The trip to Wicksteed on Saturday could prove very interesting!

Neil,
        “My little Northlight was exactly the same” - Now you tell me!  :D
I look forward to the laughter!

Ned,
         As Rickles suggests, how about twin Kort nozzles?  %%

Mike

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SteamboatPhil

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2013, 10:49:16 pm »

When you solved the problem Mike, I'll just copy your solution (what a cheat I am) still you a lot more ahead than I am, all the radio bits are still in a box.....might bring mine just to give you a laugh  :-))
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Jerry C

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2013, 10:51:42 pm »

I wouldn't worry too much about it. A little bird told me that the Titanic only makes one trip!
Jerry.

Corposant

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2013, 12:09:17 am »

Phil

I look forward to comparing notes - lots of laughs all round I think!

Jerry

In view of the fact that there's no hatch cover, it's a highly likely scenario!  {:-{ The Management has already made the same comment.  O0

Mike
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tobyker

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2013, 12:56:47 am »

The story goes that the old scottish trawler skipper got himself into trouble on the quayside when he knocked over the lamppost with the new Austin 7 he'd just bought. As he explained to the polis, he was just trying to turn it round in a tight space, so he nosed up against the lamppost, and  set the throttle to "slow ahead". Worked every time for the trawler against the harbour wall.
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Corposant

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2013, 11:43:53 am »

Tobyker

Thanks for a great story! - Sounds like a real incident with the skipper coming up with a pretty good excuse!

It seems I am going to have to nose up to a convenient iceberg every time I want to go astern!

Mike
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Corposant

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2013, 08:00:57 pm »

The trip to Wicksteed proved very useful. A larger expanse of water failed to remove the problem. It was, however, very useful to hear from several people that I am not alone - the problem is quite common! This of course confirms what everyone told me before we went - but it makes me feel better! Not only that, she didn’t sink!

So, where do we go from here? Well, the chap in the drawing office confessed that he was out of his depth but this, in the past, has never stopped him coming up with ideas - most of them pretty farcical. Because his underling had replaced the original three bladed white metal prop. with a four bladed brass one, he wondered whether it might be worth going back to a three bladed jobbie. He also thought a smaller one might draw in water from a narrower field and therefore keep it closer to the rudder. The underling’s response was “Forget that matey, I’m not splashing out on a selection props. just on the off-chance they might have a beneficial effect.”

The chap in the drawing office conceded that the Management might have something to say about such expenditure. He did, however, come up with another thought: What if the prop. were to be moved closer to the rudder? Now this appealed to his underling because, although it could not be achieved with the brass prop., it might be possible to achieve it with the old one - and it wouldn’t cost anything!

So:

A piece of rod was popped in the lathe and turned down to create a spacer with a sleeve to fit in the old prop. (which was not threaded). This was glued in and tapped out M4.



This was then used to replace the brass prop.





Another session in the bath produced the following result:



It must be said that the performance is hardly spectacular - but is a dramatic improvement on the previous experience!

Now for the dilemma! Do I buy a three bladed prop. or stick with the four? Also, do I go for a slightly smaller one? (The current one and the old white metal one are both 40mm.)

Mike

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dodes

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2013, 09:10:47 pm »

Use a three blade prop less paddle wheel effect than a four blade prop, plus the original boats had low power systems and would not use large four blade props.
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Corposant

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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2013, 09:49:52 pm »

Thanks Dodes. I am anxious that the model should not be too fast (although she seemed just about right at Wicksteed with the four bladed one). I take your point, however, about the "paddle wheel effect" - that was what the chap in the drawing office had in mind when he suggested trying three blades. The main reason for posting the update was because I do not know which had the greater effect - moving the prop. nearer the rudder or going back to three blades - so your response is invaluable!

Mike
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Re: Titanic problem!
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2013, 09:55:21 pm »


Would it be possible to replace it with a larger three bladed propeller with the angle of the blades flattened out a bit more. This would give less thrust in the forward direction but when run slowly in reverse would not cause too much water swirl.  Sorry about the technology, but I hope you get the gist

Cheers

ken
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