Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Is this possible/a good idea?  (Read 12026 times)

Pointy

  • Guest
Is this possible/a good idea?
« on: May 31, 2007, 07:40:56 pm »

Okay, here is the deal, my tools and expertise are....limited but not my single mindedness (cant' believe spell check let me get away with that one)
What would I need?
I'm thinking a model saw, one of those right angle things, thick plasticard, fibreglass type car body repair stuff and epoxy?

PS
If I don't get it right and the bow kind of points off centre- will the boat go round in a circle?
Logged

DavidHale

  • Guest
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2007, 08:12:16 pm »

Measure twice cut once.

Slap forehead, measure again and cut properly.  That's my normal method.  ::)
Logged

Shipmate60

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,855
  • You bark - I will bite!!!
  • Location: Fareham
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2007, 08:14:02 pm »

Tempted to vote for idiot, but it can be done.
You will obviously need to cut the hull, if it is a plated hull cut on plate edges.
If it isn't don't cut a straight line right round the hull, stagger it like bricks.
you will need to fit an internal keel and doubler plates inside the hull made of marine ply.
Glass everything in.
On the curves of the hull when the resin is FULLY cured epoxy plasticard internally over the gap.
Before you go any further treat the hull roughly when all is fully cured.
There is no point fairing in the join in the hull if it isn't strong enough.
If it isn't start all over again  :)
If it is fair in with car Body filler eg Davids P38 and rub down wet and dry on a block.
It should be OK, I have seen a few done this way.

Bob
Logged
Officially a GOG.

Shipmate60

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,855
  • You bark - I will bite!!!
  • Location: Fareham
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2007, 08:16:01 pm »

What hull is it though?

Bob
Logged
Officially a GOG.

chromedome

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 231
  • Location: scotland
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2007, 08:22:46 pm »

Why do you want to do this Pointy? and by how much longer do you need?

chromedome
Logged

Pointy

  • Guest
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2007, 08:24:59 pm »

Model Slipway 10 hatch coaster.

I have completed one but I'm watching it die gradually due to a reaction of the varnish and paint- it looks like a mosaic in some areas. So thinking of getting another kit, sawing new hull in half- then adding a middle section of the old one. Its a kind of recycling as I just don't know what to do with my poor coaster.  :'( Sanding it down is just not practical- would have to dismantle most of it.
Logged

chromedome

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 231
  • Location: scotland
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2007, 08:33:06 pm »

oh yes i remember you post of a few days ago about you paint dissaster :-\
Logged

westcoaster

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 184
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2007, 09:28:43 pm »

Pointy, I cant see how adding a new section of hull solves the problem. I thought your "mosaic" problem was all over the hull - so what about the bow and stern.
You could try applying paint stripper to the very bottom of the hull - dont leave it on too long then scrape and wash down. I reckon you might be able to shift most of the paint before the stripper attacks the gel coat. Doing it on the bottom means that if it is too aggressive a process then it will be out of sight. If, as i hope this will work for you you'll then have the confidence to try it on the hull sides. Even if you only remove the plasticote varnish you could sand down,repaint then recoat with a compatible clear coat. I really sympathize with your problems here but I don't think "piecing in" a new section would work
Best Wishes
Douglas
Logged

Shipmate60

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,855
  • You bark - I will bite!!!
  • Location: Fareham
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2007, 09:55:43 pm »

Pointy,
Just bite the bullet, get a bowl of water with washing up liquid in it, lots of wet and dry and start rubbing.
Honestly it wont take that long.
yes it is a complete pain in the proverbial, but it will be OK with just a bit of patience and a lot of elbow grease.
I quite often refurbish hulls with all sorts of problems and it doesn't take long.
She did look good, and do know how you feel, but she can look at least as good again and with the knowledge with all that rubbing down a superb key for the new topcoat  :)

Bob
Logged
Officially a GOG.

johno 52-11

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 302
  • Model lifeboats built to perform
  • Location: Dudley "The Blackcountry" West Midlands
    • lifeboat Models
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2007, 09:59:21 pm »

Pointy

How much are you looking to add into the middle of a hull? If its less than the length that is the same shape in section you have a couple of options 1 make a mould of the section you want to add in and then take a molding from it or ask model slipway if they can do it in the hull mould. Then just cut your hull in half and fix in the new section with glass tape. I would use epoxy, as it will bond better to the cured fiberglass. Once that is cured fill the outside with gel coat filler and flat down.

As with any GRP molding once it cured the only bond is a mechanical bond and not a chemical one.


Logged

John W E

  • I see no ships !!
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,907
  • Location: South shields
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2007, 10:25:10 pm »

hi there Pointy

If I were in your position, I would sit back and have a look at what everybody has posted and weigh up the pros and cons of cutting the hull in half.  The way I perceive it is, you are going to take the hull that has the damaged paintwork on, cut it in half and enlarge it with a new centre section - to gain what?  A larger hull, where you have to rebuild all the deck fittings.?

Personally, I would go the way Shipmates60 is suggesting; strip the paint off the existing hull and repaint it. 

You will have to start removing paintwork (if you enlarge the hull) to get a mechanical bond on the outside.

Also, you have to take into account, that you must make the hull fair and true, with the new section added in.  I can guarantee that will require the same amount of effort, as stripping the paint off, of the untouched hull.   I should imagine you would encounter other problems with enlarging a 'ready-built hull' which nobody can foresee.

So, its up to you my friend, you know your skills and limitations.

Best of luck.

aye
john e
bluebird



Logged
Knowledge begins with respect
But fools hate wisdom and discipline

Pointy

  • Guest
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2007, 07:04:09 am »

Hi guys, thanks for the imput but some of you seem a bit confused by it?

I think my post was not that clear so here is what I have in mind.

Have built a coaster but am not happy with it for many reasons, not just the paint. My plan was to recycle it- in effect break it up for parts as I don't want to waste the material and it took me a long time to build. 

So I was going to get a brand new kit- the same one. Was going to lenghten the new hull by cutting it in half and inserting the centre section of the old boat in there (after I'd sanded the wretched paint off it). This would also allow me to recycle other parts such as deck details, railings etc.

Depressing number of you have gone for the "idiot" option, hope its just in relation to this post!?
Strange, makes me even more determined to try it......
Logged

Shipmate60

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,855
  • You bark - I will bite!!!
  • Location: Fareham
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2007, 07:57:42 am »

Pointy,
One thing to remember when adding a section to a grp moulding.
The original moulding uses cut strand matting.
This is what gives the moulding its "strength" when the resin is added.
If you cut the moulding then you produce in effect a fault line in the new section.
Glassing over the inside and filling the exterior will not supply the original strength to the hull.
You have to use some form of mechanical strengthening to hold the parts together.
My preferred way would to use an internal keel fixed with epoxy and screwed from the outside into the keel.
Then glassed in.
This will of course need careful lining up.
This is best marked inside and out while the hull is in one piece, then you do have the markings to use to line everything up.

Hope this helps

Bob
Logged
Officially a GOG.

kayem

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 159
  • .....excellent!
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2007, 04:31:21 pm »

There is some misinformation flying around in this thread. It is possible to mould a new section into a hull, I've done it many times, but it isn't all that easy. There's more than one way of doing it, which I'll describe in a moment, but first you need a bare hull, and that means removing anything you want to re-use from the model, then stripping off the paint. I haven't tried it myself, but the car brake fluid method that was discussed here a couple of weeks ago sounds like the best method. Otherwise, it's wet & dry and a lot of patience.
 
First the best, but more difficult hull-lengthening method. Make a mould, preferably in GRP, though plaster of Paris also works, from the mid-section of the hull. I'm leaving out any advice on waxing and release agents here, if you don't know a fair bit about this kind of thing, then this technique may be beyond you. Then cut the hull in two using a hacksaw blade. With the two hull halves in the new mould, slide them apart to the length you want, and laminate the new section. I use double-sided tape between mould and the old hull sections to hold everything firmly in place, but you'll also need some clamps. Then you have to apply a gelcoat, a bit of extra thickness for rubbing down if the old hull isn't seating perfectly into the mould, then the usual glass mat and resin, forget epoxy, use the material that the hull was made from originally. Avoiding shipmate's 'fault lines' is easy, you have to chamfer the edges of the old hull on the inside, so that all the real strength is in the new fibreglass, but don't thin down to much less than 1mm, or the edges may start to curl, slightly. If you take your time and do it right, there won't be any weak spots, and the join should be completely undetectable under a few coats of paint. You can't fill a tight butt joint, cracks will always appear eventually, so use a Dremel to cut a shallow groove a few mm wide on the outside, and fill this with P38 before rubbing the whole thing down.
 
Next the slightly easier method. Prepare three lengths of straight timber about a foot long, using something like half inch ply. Ideally you should have a helper for the next bit, but tape fairly thick flexible polythene over the gap between the two hull halves, apply double-sided tape to the wood and the hull and stick everything together applying one piece of wood to the hull bottom and one to each side. If you don't get it right first time, pull it off and try again, but this should result in a pretty solid assembly eventually. Then with the hull edges chamfered as described before, apply gelcoat, glass mat & polyester resin to the inside, going at least an inch over the joint either side with the mat & resin. Once this is hard, remove the wood and peel off the polythene. Clean off any traces of tape adhesive with thinners, and fill & sand the outside until you're happy with it. There will be a lot more sanding & filling with this method, but it avoids all the hassle of making a mould that you'll probably only ever use one time.
 
You'll probably get some alternative advice about 'easier' methods, same as with that recent thread on the distorted Bluebird hull, but there are no easy fixes for difficult problems. I do this kind of thing for a living, these are the methods I use, and either method will work OK if done properly

Logged
"Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book; inside of a dog, it's very dark" Groucho Marx

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23,865
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2007, 05:01:55 pm »


I've just been having fun and games with Kayem.... for sum unknown reason the word  "c u r l"  with a space after it - causes the forum software to crash!  ??? :o ???

Martin.
 :-\
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!" -  Visit the Mayhem FaceBook Groups!  &  Giant Models

Shipmate60

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,855
  • You bark - I will bite!!!
  • Location: Fareham
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2007, 05:44:08 pm »

Kayem,
Glad you came in with your experience.
Its good to hear the "correct" way  to do it from someone who has more experience.
I have done it and it was OK, but I left the strengthening wood in as I didn't trust MY glassing.

Bob
Logged
Officially a GOG.

kayem

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 159
  • .....excellent!
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2007, 05:55:00 pm »


I've just been having fun and games with Kayem.... for sum unknown reason the word  " c u r l"  with a space after it - causes the forum software to crash!  ??? :o ???

Martin.
 :-\


The lengths some of us go to for you lot, I seem to have spent a good part of this afternoon swapping e-mails with Martin or chatting to him on the phone, all in an attempt to find out why the forum was refusing to accept one of my posts. We were both mystified, not too surprising in my case, as I quite often sit in front of my computer being mystified, but isn't Martin supposed to be some kind of 'expert' with these things? In his last call, he could hardly talk for laughing, apparently I'd found a word, possibly the only word in existence, that screws up the forum software. He started spelling it out to me on the phone, and as he read out 'C', 'U'... etc, I feared the worst, had I been in one of those moods when I wrote my post? If I'd really used that four letter word, surely a lifetime ban was on its way, but no, the word was c.u.r.l, nothing more offensive than that. I suppose that's what is meant by the phrase, 'had him by the short and curlies'.
Logged
"Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book; inside of a dog, it's very dark" Groucho Marx

Shipmate60

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,855
  • You bark - I will bite!!!
  • Location: Fareham
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2007, 06:21:04 pm »

So the site "CURL-ed up its toes" for a while  :)

Bob
Logged
Officially a GOG.

Pointy

  • Guest
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2007, 06:51:40 pm »

I'm very grateful to all you who have helped and given me advice on this thread- and other threads, you have given me alot to think about.
Logged

PSSHIPS

  • Guest
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2007, 12:11:01 am »

In my humble opinion, why not make a new hull completely from scratch like we do from drawings instead of 'language' (dont need it thanks bradders) about with something that is almost 100% CORRECT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

C'mon guys, get a grip?

 Naff paintwork is easy to fix, if you use modelling paints in the first place for a model.

 What's wrong with a bit of elbow grease and gritted paper etc.
 
 To me this is going beyond a joke!

 I just thought I would add my two P worth.
 Paul...
Logged

chromedome

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 231
  • Location: scotland
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2007, 08:40:14 am »

Humble.. :-\......... ;)

   chromedome
Logged

splodger

  • Guest
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2007, 10:46:43 am »


Paul, you seem to be missing the point here. Some of us modellers don't always want to do things the easy way, we do things that may seem illogical to someone like you, because we enjoy a challenge, to most non-professionals, that's what modelling is all about. It's a bit like someone who likes climbing mountains "Because they are there", especially if they could take a chairlift to the top instead. If pointy wants to cut a perfectly good hull in two to lengthen it, that's a good example. If he gets it right and no-one can see the join, then no-one will ever know, unless he tells them of course, but he'll have something that's unique, he'll have done something clever, and nobody else will have a model exactly like it. I think it's great that professionals like kayem take the time to post helpful advice on this forum to help us less gifted mortals, and there are several others just like him. If kayem and other experts come across as nice helpful people with a genuine interest in our problems, that's great, and I hope they get more business from other forum members on the strength of it.


Moderated
Logged

splodger

  • Guest
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2007, 06:19:29 pm »

That last post looks a bit odd now, I posted it in response to a bad tempered midnight rant from one of Mayhem's 'characters', more or less along the lines of ".... you're all a bit sad to even think of doing something like this, what's the point?" The original post was removed by Mayhem pretty quickly, and the last bit of mine suggesting that the individual concerned should take more water with it was also moderated. No real harm done, but I'll try to remember to take a bit more water with mine as well in future.
Logged

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23,865
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2007, 06:31:03 pm »

Good man splodger  ;D
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!" -  Visit the Mayhem FaceBook Groups!  &  Giant Models

Tom Eccles

  • Guest
Re: Is this possible/a good idea?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2007, 06:40:26 pm »

Having just read through this thread I am put in mind of the story about the government inspector who was visiting a secure mental hospital.

Inspector, "How can you be sure that a patient is cured and ready for the outside world?"

Governor, "We have an infallible method of ensuring someone is sane, Come to the bathroom and I will show you"

The two men go to the bathroom and are confronted by a bath full to the brim with water. On the floor are a bucket, a teacup and an egg cup.

Governor, " Right then, the question is - how would you empty the bath?"

Inspector, " Obviously I would use the bucket because of its greater capacity"

Governor, " Actually we just pull the plug out. Now we happen to have a vacant bed on E wing....."

The answer is staring you in the face, REPAINT THE MODEL!!!!!!

Good luck and best regards

Tom
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.091 seconds with 21 queries.