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[Bartapuss]

Harrogate Model Engineering Show May 11th to 13th in my humble opinion is a great model show in our area of the world and I look forward to it every year, however I think ther's a couple of thing needed to make it more accessible to a wider range of models as it mainly model engineering focused (hence the name, DUMMY I hear you shout at your monitors). There is a large group of model boat clubs which support this event every year but there is only one trader which caters for this, is this because stand costs are too high???, if the show organisers made stand fees more competitive then surely more mainstream model traders would support it and a better experience would be had by the general public as a whole. There would be more products available for THEM to buy ie toy boats/cars/kits etc, as at the moment unless you are purchasing a lathe or engineering supplies there's little else..

Compition judging, this year a points system was adopted which meant a entry had to gain a certain level of points before qualifying for a position in the boat only third and first was awarded and no second as the points was not achieved, so if you only had three models for the boats section no of them might get a position, I believe this was the case with the steam section this year. I think that this is very unfair, I could possibly understand it if they were handing out thousands of pounds in prize money but they're not, its should be kept light and as a bit of fun, otherwise people will get downhearted and will not bother in the future and with the way the hobby seams to be heading newcomers and established modellers themselves need all the encouragement they can get.

I am not connected with the shows organisers other than a grateful patron and I am not slating their efforts, I just believe that a few tweaks would may it more accessible to more people and more enjoyable to all. :)

[DickyD]

Moderated

[Bryan Young]

Moderated

[DickyD]

Moderated

[Bryan Young]

Moderated

[DickyD]

Moderated

[Martin (Admin)]

Now , now children, no bickering allowed.

Sniping & Tit-for-tat postings will result in a 31 day ban from the forum.

Admin

[chas]

I have to agree with the comments about the show. There were many fine models, and the club stands were well suported. I am returning to model boating after a lapse of several years, and the help and encouragement I had from everyone I spoke to was great, especialy from the York group.
  The lack of trade suport was, to put it mildly very dissapointing. I went expecting to buy a new radio outfit,  and with a long list of the bits I needed. I spent less than £20.00 ( on the excellent battery stand), not even able to buy the paint, wood, or plasticard I needed. As to the Judging, I can't comment, but to me the standard of models seemed very high, I saw some steam launches that were a joy to behold. I wouldn't dare show my models in such company. I must add that if these are typical of what people make nowdays, then things have come on since my early days in the 1960s. I believe the organisers have to encourage more diverse trade stands,  the metal bashers stands are so well supported, but engineering takes many forms, not just in brass and steel.

[anmo]

Now , now children, no bickering allowed.

Sniping & Tit-for-tat postings will result in a 31 day ban from the forum.

Admin

Promises, promises .....

[a3nige]

I also went to Harrogate & as I have never been before had no expectations as to what was on offer.
But the title of the show says it all. MODEL ENGINEERING, i.e. lathes, metalwork, steam engines, milling machines etc.
The model boat displays were to me a bonus.
Just my twopennarth.

Nige

[tigertiger]

With regard to the competition placings. It seems odd.

This sort of regime is, I believe, used when there are regional heats. So that winners from weaker heats do not displace more worthy entrants from other areas.

But if this is a local comp only then you can have 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Even if some are 'below par'.

[HS93 (RIP)]

 SHG where there with a shed load of  plasticard etc in a promenant position.

Peter

[Bee]

I think the points or merit based system is far fairer than just 'top 3'. The old Model Engineer exhibition awards as many golds etc as required.  If a couple of top class modellers happen to complete their model in the same year one ends up second even though both could be worth gold, and other excellent efforts only have one place left to compete for. This happened several years running in the 16mm Association a few years back and caused massive ill feeling when very good models could not be properly recognised. It left most people thinking there was no point entering.
It is rather like the system in 'top of the pops' when 10 weeks of sustained sales get beaten for No1 by a girl in a short skirt singing a hiliday bop song that is forgotten forever next week.

[John W E]

Hi all,

I think the points system that Harrogate are running now is a lot fairer than the system they ran last year.  Whereas Harrogate's old system was based upon 'if the model looked right and looked good' it won a place.   It didnt matter if it was a kit built model, semi kit model, scratch built model and aeroplane, traction engine, model boat - they were all judged on the same table against one another.

So, a man painstakingly building a perfect replica of a traction engine from plans was judged along with a guy making a plastic kit.

So Harrogate's point system that they have adopted is obviously a move in the right direction, although they havent perfected it yet.

Aye
john e
bluebird

[Colin Bishop]

There are two approaches to judging. One is relative, one absolute. Like everything else it is horses for courses. If you are running say, a steering competition, you adopt the relative method with 1st, 2nd & 3rd. If you are judging the quality of the model then you can use the relative approach but equally you can use the absolute one whereby if the model reaches a certain standard it will achieve an award. The important thing is to make the judging criteria absolutely clear to all concerned and use competent judges. Not as easy as it sounds!

As far as the competitor is concerned - don't get too hung up on a single event! If you are happy with your model what does it matter what the judges think? There's always another event down the road where you may do better.

I've got a load of trophies at home I collected during the 80's. Now i'm retired I have to dust them every week and reckon they might be better off in the loft!

[John W E]

Yes Colin I totally agree with what you are saying about the judging and judging standards, but, I feel where Harrogate has fallen down in the past was its method of judging.  Or, should I say, lack of it. Up until the present time.

I do not think they had a point system or scale system to work to, nor did they segregate the models into categories, as I have stated in my last posting.  So now they have adopted a lot fairer point system people are not seeing it this way.  It is still a lot fairer than the 'old' system........Like everything else though, time will tell.

Some models that were one the judging table but were not judged, the owners must accept that the judges may be did not think they came up to the standard required.

aye
john e
bluebird

[Colin Bishop]

In the ME Exhibition we do judge everything which is entered and we have to be prepared to justify our marking. My technique is to look at all the models on display and get an initial impression which one(s) is worth a "Bronze" award. It's not too difficult to then mark everything around that although frequently a second look is needed to ensure that justice is done. and this sometimes results in changes. My view is that if somebody is prepared to put their model up for judging then the judges should take it in that spirit and look at it seriously.

Having said that, I am always looking for the positives and would never seek to run down an entry gratituously. At the end of the day we are here to encourage the hobby, not put people off it!

[Bunkerbarge]

Big topic and one where you will never please everyone.  How are the anomalies handled for example?  Do judges confer and compare or do they simply add up points?  Are kits and scratch builds leveled differrently?

As an example, I am making a so called 'Kit'.  However I am ditching the pre-printed ply overlays and laying my own decks, I have ditched the flying bridge sidings and replaced them with individual planks, I have fitted differrent bulwark stays, I have ditched the pre-printed ply overlay for the hatch boards and individually planked them, I have modified the bridge assembly to make it removeable which the kit did not, etc...etc... etc...

I have put more into this model than a lot of people could put into a scratch built model but I feel it is looked down upon because of the fact that it started off as a kit.

That is precisely why I will never show my models and have someone looking down thier nose at my "Kit" and seeing it in a lesser light than they may a "scratch built" to a plan but which could be a balsa chine construction and could have been assembled in a few hours.  Don't get me wrong, I am all for every kind of modelling but "scoring" puts things into categories and caregories are not necessarliy fair.  All models should be looked at purely individually and assessed on the merits of thier individual construction without categorising.

[Shipmate60]

In my opinion the judging "scores" should be published beforehand so entrants know what the judges are looking for.
there is always controversy after any judged event.
I also think the scorecards should be available for scrutiny.
In saying this I have only ever judged one local model boat show and vowed "never again".
But the judges (2 of us) did discuss points with the entrants, but it took up an inordinate amount of time.
Its strange how some consider their models worthy winners with glaring "problems" and others who make superb models just the opposite.
I don't enter any on my models in competitions on principal and have refused the odd prize, it just isn't what I model for.
But I can understand those that would like recognition for their skills and ability.
You will never win as a judge, but as had been said before transparency would go a long way to removing these problems.

Bob

[Colin Bishop]

No reason for people to look down their nose at you Bunkerbarge. I usually build scratch but at the moment I'm doing something very similar to you - a "modified" kit. Depending on the criteria at a particular event you could do quite well. I'm all in favour of different judging criteria - it would be rather boring if everything was exactly the same. The important thing is that if you submit your model for scrutiny you should be clear upon what the basis is and that the judges do too!

At the ME Exhibition a modified kit will always be marked down against a high quality scratch built model and rightly so in my view. In fact, we often shift models into a more suitable class where they will do better if we feel that they have been incorrectly entered. A modified kit entered in the Kit class will accumulate brownie points over a standard kit if the changes have been documented. On the other hand somebody may do well with a standard kit "out of the box" if the quality of build and finish is exemplary. It's hard being a judge - nobody loves you!

[Brian_C]

REGARDING HARROGATE SHOW.......  ive just had a phone conversation with lou rex regarding the 2007 show, discussing the points system for model boats in the exhibition section, and also regarding models that were meant to be judged and were passed over by the judges and not given any points at all, by error ?   (dont know lou,s checking this out with the judges)   the points system has not changed in all the years of the show being held and this has been explained to me, ive asked lou to come onto the forum and explain in full, and he asked me to place a posting to say that he will be logging on in the next 36 hours to explain to us all, after reading your postings........................................ brian_c 

[Sub driver]

I have been going to the Harrogate show now for more than a decade and have entered some models into the competition on a few occasions.
I understand that a model gets " points " for various things and that each award level is set, ie if the score for a Highly commended is say 50 points and you don't obtain the 50 points you will not get the award, likewise if the score for a second is 80 points and you obtain that then you get the second etc etc.
I have been fortunate to have a few highly commendeds and a second place at the show over the years.

One has to be aware that this is the National Model Engineering and Modelling Exhibition we are talking about and that when you enter the competition here you are up against some of the most talented and best modellers in the U.K. therefore the standard WILL be exceptionally high.

Just a point, not all the models on the competition table were in the competition, the competition models had to be pre entered and a form filled out detailing the build process and what was made, bought etc in order to help the judges. The competition models had Competition in red on there exhibit cards and only these were as far as i am aware were in the competition and judged.

When a model is entered into a competition you invite people to look at the model in fine minute detail and therefore should expect it to be pulled up on its failures and be complemented upon its detail, difficulty in building etc that is the idea of a competition.

Bunkerbarge, no one will ever look down there nose at ANY of your models, your standard of modelling is extremely high, and your attention to detail exquisite. If you do place your models in competition I for one would get very worried about the competition !.
The standard of modelling at this competition is second to none and only makes some of us strive to make a better , finer model next time. My opinion anyway. Don't worry be happy   
 

[Bartapuss]

I think the thing is when modellers are judging other modellers models, the tend to look for the slightest fault to justify why that particular model should not win a place, at a regatta at Borders Model Boat Club a lady from the visitors, with no connection to any of the entrants, was simply asked which model she would choose if she were allowed to take one home, and that was how the best in show was chosen. Could a similar judging team be picked containing couple of modeller and say some persons from the various trade stands to give a more broader view, as I said keep it light and fun.

[Colin Bishop]

I don't think I could agree with that Bartapuss, unless it is made clear that the whole thing is a joke. If modellers put their work in for serious competition then they are entitled to expect that the judges will be competent. You wouldn't expect a football match to be refereed on the basis that the best looking player gets awarded regular penalties would you?

Yes, at the top scrutiny is pretty thorough but it only serves to separate out the best from a very high quality entry and finding fault isn't a negative process. I have served as a ME Judge for many years, usually on the Kit Class but also sometimes on the others and I can assure you that the judges take their responsibilities very seriously indeed. having said that, they are very much dependent upon the documentation supplied by competitors as no judge can be an expert on everything. Believe me, this can varry tremendously in quality! Nobody is forced to compete, but if they do they are entitled to something better that some well intentioned lady deciding what would look best on her mantlepiece!

[Bunkerbarge]

Firstly Sub Driver, thanks for the kind comments, praise indeed from someone who has put together the best pair of Robbe U-boats you are likely to come across.

Just another word into the melting pot for discussion, mainly for Colin who being a Judge will be able to give a view from the other side of the fence.

I have noticed a concerning tendancy nowadays for some modellers to describe thier work as scratchbuilt when I think the definition may be questionable.  I have actually seen a couple of boats only recently on Ebay described as such when they were in fact built on a purchased fibre glass hull and I have also noticed at shows a nicely made model fitted with white metal winches, cowlings etc.  The question is do judges question a models eligibility to be in a certain class and if a model has been described incorrectly would it be disallowed? 

Also how far do you take scratchbuilding?  Would the fitting of manufactured brass stanchions be allowed and hence at what point is the decision made that something is homemade or not?  You could continue the argument and say that pre-cut planking is not scratchbuilt so I guess such things will only ever be decided as long as the rules are clearly defined and adhered to.

I certainly do not envy the job of the judges but as in so many things they are bound to be considerably more subjective in thier views which may be inconsistent with thier colleagues.